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For maximum benefit and most trusted...I think NBTHK. But a US shinsa is convenient and much cheaper, and frankly I would generally regard any of the papers from all 3 organizations to be far better than no papers. I would happily submit to a US shinsa. I accept that all 3 groups know far more than me. Also, papers are indeed better when selling. Especially at the mid level. At the upper levels, collectors are usually more fussy. There is no real downside to papers, aside from the expense. If you can afford it, and the return on investment isn't your primary focus, go for it. But don't do it just for the money.

Gosh, I have to say that Nick Komiya was a real treasure to us Gendato gunto collectors. That doc with the red border around the 27 smiths on display the Matsuzakaya Dept. Store there in Ginza in 1942 is a treasure to me. In those 27 names is Tsukamoto Masakazu (col 4 from R, top), the maker of a very nice gunto in RS mounts that I own (also listed is his younger bro Tsukamoto Okimasa (col 1 from R top) and a 'middle' brother Kasama (born Tsukamoto) Kiyokazu (col 3 from R bot). Who could ask for better historical records for their collection than the docs Nick dug out of the archives. What a loss to us is his passing. Regards...

Its a fake one. You have the right feeling about it.

very nice carving by Kano Natsuo.

A little correction, Jūhō Tōken Kenkyū Kai (銃砲刀剣研究会)

Thomas, Those two pictures are very interesting. The amount of uncertainty in the collecting world definitely makes the hobby exciting. You start to realize how each item is a small piece in solving a much larger puzzle. I like reading all the differing opinions on these swords too. I am glad the post spawned further discussion on this topic. Conway

Column 2 Hokke Saburo Column 4 Yamamura Sukeyuki (mentioned on Jinsoo Kim's site). Tanaka Munetsugu is correct Column 5 I think you are right. It must be a misprint of Kunitada Column 6 Toriu (also Toryu, Torio, Torisei, Toriike, Torii). Toriu and Torio seem to be the most common. Hard to know unless we find a contemporary document that shows the pronunciation.

Hi Matt, Forgive me for answering a question you didn't ask: beginners should not be buying Japanese swords at auction. Unless you knew the answers to the questions you asked and more before the sale, you should have stayed away from it. You were buying blind, which is an easy way to get burned. With knowledge you can try the auctions; until then you need a dealer who knows a lot and can be trusted. Grey

Cat hamon anyone?

Depends. An example. I could own an OBVIOUS late Muromachi Mino Tanto, signed Kane (whatever), with everything correct right down to the yasurime. I know its genuine but a great number wont. If it don't have papers, your limiting any future sale to those that are able to verify and accept for themselves OR would need to be papered for newbies and the ignorant to purchase. Lack of papers must reflect price. Then you have price, many wont pay for an expensive piece without papers, which is understandable. The big grey area is Mumei and the thousands of oddball blades that throw a spanner in the works. Some folk cant accept and need to know so head to shinsa. I dont feel any real contentment comes from such blades regarding maker, even after attaining papers, but that's me. Some beautiful mid level blades out there without papers and owners that have been able to research and come up with their own opinions, isn't that what this hobby is about. Tons of variables, set by the blade in question and the differing folks that buys them.

I used the wrong link for item below......it should be Thomas' post: Mal, I thought you might enjoy reading this post by Nick Komiya. 1941 IJA Weapons Prices in today's values, Post #14 Source document can be found at the link below. 全国現代刀匠作刀日本刀展覧会開催の件 I found this mail from Thomas and the original from Nick Komiya very interesting, especially the list of 27 swordsmiths invited to display swords in July 1942. Seems to be a selection of better tosho of the time, so I tried to translate and identify. Got most of them but we got stuck of some. Any assistance / correction is most welcome.

It's issued by the Teppō Tōken Kenkyū Kai (鉄砲刀剣研究会). It's a dealer-affiliated group based in Osaka. I don't know if they are still around. Teppō Tōken Kenkyū Kai = Gun and Sword Research Association I don't know if that's their official English name, or if they even have one.

I personally don't really care about papers but I believe they may increase your chances for reselling as some buyers will only buy papered items and others will find it reassuring to have a paper confirming that a piece is genuine. I sometimes buy from Aoi Arts and I asked them twice to submit a sword to shinsa for me. The cost is modest (around 250 EUR) and since the item is already in Japan, you don't have the hassle of shipping the item overseas, paying an agent for the paperwork. The downside is that you usually need to wait several weeks or months but I'm fine with that.

Just to round off the thread…..it’s just arrived and one of those that turns out far better than the images. Just a quick pic to show the height of the inlay and maybe a better idea of the plate colour…..as John says….shibuichi. Thanks to all for helping. All the best. Colin

The Concentric Rings one looks like the work of the Yahoo!Japan seller who surfaces many tsuba having similar siblings in famous books. Yet many of his tsuba are some sort of chemical frankensteins when you finally get them in hand. The excessive and slightly odd "natural" age diveting, and the stomped in dirt appearance. Everyone who has been buying off of Yahoo!Japan falls for one of his works sooner or later. Myself included, many many years ago.

Hi folks, We've been back in our house for 2 weeks; still living among boxes and piles of stuff but it is good to be home. I moved my sword books out of storage the other day; I'm ready for business. For a week or so I'll give a 10% discount on any item on my website: books, fittings, or swords. Save $10 on a $100 book or quite a bit on the Tsuda Sukehiro katana. If you are interested in anything please contact me by email through my site or gdoffin at gmail.com, not personal message here at NMB. I need your emails to keep track of business. And a big thanks to all of you who wrote kind messages after the fire. Grey

Speaking of Kurihara Hikosaburō 栗原彦三郎, I think this is a picture of him. The box has the kanji characters 御太刀 on it. Something different..., Post #309

There should be two cats in here somewhere.

Hello I have this tsuba with signature I can read (but not sure) Masa Yuki saku what do you think ?? Thank you Regards Bernard

@k moritaMorita san, also please note I did not correctly "link" my earlier post. It should have been linked to: Mal, I thought you might enjoy reading this post by Nick Komiya. 1941 IJA Weapons Prices in today's values, Post #14 Source document can be found at the link below. 全国現代刀匠作刀日本刀展覧会開催の件 Any assistance with translation greatly appreciated, as some of these names are difficult.

From my old postting, Kurihara Akihide speech.

Prices at DTI were relatively high this year, maybe driven by dealers trying to capitalize on a strong dollar, but I also think dealer inventories at the high end are pretty low.... So I think the market at the high end is quite strong, and we are seeing some upward drift in prices as a result.

Overall fittings like ko kinko for many customers do not yield a price increase with papers. I personally would not pay extra for anything papered Heian and such. Even at the mainline Goto level there are many fittings not having any papers and still going for 10-20k. With blades there are very few customers who would go for unpapered blade. NTHK is a victim of self-fulfilled monopoly. For many people having NTHK papers brings up a question "what was wrong with NBTHK ones". And Europeans are generally not used to seeing them at all. In the US people rely on them, since that's what comes to the US and that's what a lot of people have. Personally I feel the issue at times is not any particular organization per se, but there are really bad shinsa sessions. You see half of worksheets having one and the same attribution, a stream of TokuJu level names and then 5 years later these blades still can't find a customer and are still at the same basic paper level, etc.etc. Happens unfortunately more often recently than before.

Shoami is the common spelling in English but k morita might have a better handle on pronunciation? A pretty common theme of a waterfall on one side, mountains in the distance with little touches of gold like dandelion puffs - signed in full both sides of the hitsu some not signed at all and a few like yours only part of the full name, sometimes with the second part deliberately erased. The shape varies through all the major forms, but Maru is the most common. This is one of mine Tachi-mokkō-gata (太刀木瓜形) You will notice the style of signature is very different, there were many artists signing "Shoami". I think mine translates as "Honami" so it could be a homage?

Peter, If I'm not mistaken, the powder flasks ( leather ) are Arabic in origin. Certainly not Japanese.

Hi, The mei says 正阿弥　(Syoami).

I agree with Piers. BUT I sort of suspicion that not all of this is "Japanese." Elsewhere in East Asia and colonial Japan?? How would we check? Peter

The lower ranks were allowed to use personal swords until 1939 and many of these swords were purchased in China. Take a look at the second picture down from the top, two NCOs with private swords can be seen. This is the dilemma that we face in trying to identify these swords in this thread and others. 私物軍刀

OP, there is a lot to unpack here... My opinion--worth the price of admission--is that yes, Nihonto prices are going down. This does not mean that they won't go up, decrease further, have less buyers in the market going forward (or more). Plainly, no one can predict the future. This is why my personal philosophy to collecting is does it bring me joy; do I like it/need it...need is a funny word. On the subject of younger collectors, this can change overnight. All it takes is one pop culture phenomenon; that is, popular movie franchise...whatever. Collectors and people in general are becoming more demanding in their tastes and preferences. Recall when sushi (in US) was hard to find, Mexican hot sauces which are now available most places, avocado...or how about in the 80's when most middle class were wearing the same 'brown colored clothes' which may have a brand tag label on it...now choices are endless. --> In my collecting experience, as a younger person and newer collector, there were a couple nihonto that I significantly over paid for...like someone said above, let's make sure it is fair. This can turn a collector sour very quickly... --> Also, in my personal experience, I have received expert commentary privately from collectors worldwide who have significant investments in this and other hobbies...for a total newbie like myself. I am thankful for this feedback and direction. Ultimately, I do not have all the answers...but my recommendation would be to simply enjoy nihonto collecting at a level you can afford or justify and simply not care about the costs. This should be fun and not a stressful experience. As collectors, we can sometimes overlook the basics and the reasons why we started. Rhetorically, was it to temporarily store money in the hopes you get it back or make a profit?

I think, the number of views in a thread isn't an indication of quality or interest. You would have to look into these comments to know if they were made on the basis of consent or disagreement (or protest). If someone writes complete bull***t and the community - as a measure to stop wrong information being spread which would be in opposition to what this forum aims at - there will of course be a lot of contradiction! To the address of Dan: In fact you don't do any research. You gather passages from texts and present them with your personal interpretation. You use citations out of context to support your opinion, but in fact you lack the very basic knowledge and understanding of many subjects you are dealing with. You post a crude hypothesis - far away of what is known and agreed upon by experts - and are happy to create a turmoil. Everyone is wrong who disagrres, but as a forum community we have a responsibility towards the (newer) members and towards the actual state of knowledge and science. I can easily accept that I don't know everything that is known even in my fields of interest and work. That is why I am here: to learn. I don't have a problem with a newbie posting simple questions or even wrong information here, and I will always be happy to help with what little I know. But I find it stubborn and not very intelligent to run against a brick wall....

The person who made the piece missed the mark - it järs with the overall design.

The blade is so full of life and well polished that actually you don't even need special light nor a good camera since the details are visible anyway. Attached are a few pictures I did only with daylight and my mobile phone. Depending on the angle in which you hold it to the camera you can see different details of the blade. Additionally these made visible a detail which the togishi choose to do - to remove absolutely as minimal material as possible and rather leave a very few rust pits and chips rather than to take away too much material, yet the result is fantastic. The three hi are fantastic and satisfying to look at. Especially for me since I absolutely love them for being perfectly parallel and mirrored on both sides of the blade. Notice the blade cross section changes to diamond shape in front of the hi just to go back to wedge shape (oh year, I know I'm using the wrong terms!) towards the tip.

Here some pictures of a real one for study. Her

Hi, Can you please show us the Kake?

Many thanks Conway for the additional photographs. I located another picture showing an enlisted soldier in China with one of these samurai style swords slung across his back. This photograph was posted by @lonely panet back in 2018. Photo Translation Please, Post #12

Gabe, I too have my work camera pointed at the sword container shown in picture 1. I get a lot of positive comments from my co-workers. Warm Regards,

Perhaps the sword mounts could also be using some 'recycled' fittings?

Sorry Dan, I’m here to learn and share what I know, not for the “likes” or to merely create controversy. When you can read the original modern and ancient Japanese and know the different terms for iron/steel/cast iron/etc/etc and the precision of the English translations/transliterations, then your research may match what has been written and evaluated over the past 200 years. I encourage you to present your research for peer review.

Jacques, my information are that cast iron has a melting temperature of 1.150°C (eutectic) or a bit higher depending on the alloy. Usually, alloys have a lowered melting point due to contamination, so a higher C content will lead to a lower melting point.

That is a very common thing to say here in the southern USA. "Bless your heart" can mean exactly what it says...in a nice way. OR, it can be a polite way of saying you are an asshole, or that you are a complete idiot. <-- All in how it is said.

Was doing some research on Choshu tsubas just now and came across this: Bonhams : A Choshu-school iron tsuba By Nakai Tomotsune, 18th century (2)

A menuki set with a cat watching a butterfly - Page 131 of this book - ISBN-13978-4769401360 Also some design images for menuki from the Chosen-Gafu book

Okan - it might be a big stretch with that tsuba - - but I can see where you are headed I had no idea the Japanese were into Cheshire cats!

Not my taste but here you go...

While I cannot judge the dating of the sword itself, both the paper by Nojima and the Yao city report clearly state that the sword is cast iron, and they cite evidence from X-ray transmission imaging (numerous cavities) as one of the proof that the sword was cast. An earlier article is also cited in the Nojima report, showing that, in Japan even, some researchers did not believe that long and thin items (such as this blade) could have been cast with the technology. In the conclusion of the Nojima report, it is said that cast iron items (pig iron in the text) were decarburized (as they are now when making tea kettles). The report states that while large production was difficult in earlier times and there are still many unknowns, the large spread of "pig iron items" from Nara period to Heian period shows the ability for mass production. As an aside, the Yao city cultural report was written by specialists in their fields, and I find insulting to comment on their abilities without even skimming the report. Here are the links reposted, just in case: Nojima report https://ir.lib.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/files/public/3/36130/20141028020046845818/KAKEN23520946_Nojima.pdf Yao city report (2008) https://sitereports.nabunken.go.jp/en/4618

The article linked above does not call it a sword, but uses an older character for Hoko 戈 (not the straight blade but hooked or angled like an axe), which Wiki suggests were largely ceremonial and not effective as a practical weapon. It says they are found made of bronze, iron, stone, etc. Thus the idea that a 'cast iron' sword would shatter is true, yes, but may not be relevant to the object unearthed. 戈 - Wikipedia

I found that the sword was excavated at Otake-nishi Renains in Yao city. The sword was found at the 3rd excavation (1996-1997) and documented in a report in 2008. It is the first sword which was recognized as a cast iron sword in the area. Ref. 大竹西遺跡 - Comprehensive Database of Archaeological Site Reports Japan (nabunken.go.jp) Also an archaeologist studying on iron cast in ancient Japan mentioned the sword in his paper (in Japanese). Ref. KAKEN23520946_Nojima.pdf (hiroshima-u.ac.jp)

Hello Georg, let me first congratulate you on your new sword, it's quite impressive and potentially extraordinarily valuable if it is genuine. However fake signatures or Gimei are abound of this particular smith so special attention from an expert who has it in hand would be the best way forward. My first suggestion would be to contact Markus Sesko who is a member here, as well as quite an authority on Japanese swords. If it is genuine you would want to have it polished in Japan then verified by the NBTHK which is the main Japanese sword organization. If everything is authentic and the sword is free from any serious issues your 100 Euros could turn into tens of thousands. I would rightly be wary of any offers you receive on this sword before having it seen by a professional and been given a clear assessment & advice on where to go with it.