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Ray I suppose what Jussi implicitly references is the fact that a commercially purchased blade has an inbuilt profit margin realised by one or, more likely, several dealers and resellers. Therefore, when, or if, the time comes to dispose of it, one will very likely sustain some loss, unless the blade is a very sought-after (usually big) name, which has appreciated over the holding period. Broadly, the latter is not impossible or improbable, and we have seen it recently with specific smiths. For instance, Norishige and Muramasa have really styrocketed in the last 10 years or so. There are some Shinto names which have also appreciated palpably, eg Horikawa Kunihiro etc. This is only anecdotal from my limited observations but there are professionals on this Board who can attest further. Some friends refer to this potential loss of return on resale as “tax of enjoyment and study” of the underlying items. This “tax” can of course be minimised with some shrewd shopping, ideally directly in Japan, but one needs to beware hopes and expectations of a profit or meaningful financial return. Exceptions are possible, as in every field…. Personally, I have also decided for myself it is better to save over a medium period of time and buy swords only very occasionally, but periodically let go of some items over the years. That does not diminish the enjoyment of the hobby at all - I still meet very interesting people, become engaged in related events and so on. But the excitement of “ownership” is not there as one becomes blasé after a while, due to the plethora of swords and fittings one could be exposed to. Sometimes, viewing/holding/ studying items without necessarily owning them is fulfilling and rewarding enough.

I’m ok. I just had to settle down. I am actually rather serious about this. I will wait and educate myself. Just so crazy nothing has had me this worked up ever. I normally have to educate myself on almost anything I get into or any purchases. By Nihonto has my emotions and rational thinking all scrambled up. I’m 53 so it’s not a youthful fling either. I really see myself getting serious.

My wife told me to buy she sword I liked at DTI! I think after spending 7 days in Japan and walking 20k steps a day, she was finally happy to find a place with padded chairs to sit down for a few hours while I browsed swords. She’s a keeper!

I would suggest “吉明” (Yoshiaki), although one stroke is missing.

The top looks like the usual start of "備州長船 Bishu Osafune Ju xxx", the lower characters are difficult but may be "祐定 - Sukesada".

How much do we have to save????…..and why?. I’m still confused. Are you talking about how long newcomers should wait before buying or how long we have to keep a sword before selling at a profit? I cannot see how quoting your own words is an attack…..you are focussing on money despite suggesting that you are not….thats OK as long as we know it’s money that is driving the debate. Your topic title asks why is there a taboo. There is no taboo. It is very simple……people do whatever they chose to do. People spend whatever they can afford on whatever takes their fancy. Who are we to judge? Rich people can spend a lot. They can also save a lot. The less well off can probably only save a small amount….how long do they wait before jumping in? In the last 3 years I have sold 60 swords mostly face to face mostly to experienced collectors! Mostly below £5k and it has brought a lot of pleasure to me as a seller and resulted in a great many very happy customers. Some I sold at a loss and couldn’t care less. Some I deliberately sold at a loss because I know the customer has financial constraints. Some I made a modest profit on. Overall I have recouped my outlay which in the current global market is a minor miracle.

So gents, let us indeed adhere to a neutral and civil tone of exchange. Ray, when we were starting out 20-30 years ago, there was less info available, fewer purchase / learning choices in the Western world, we had fewer contacts. The world has moved on a lot in the intervening time. We and Japan have also moved on and opened new doors. Yes, I made the conscious choice to wait for 8 years between when I became a timid and intermittent visitor to the Token Society of U.K. meetings (surrounded by slightly sceptical but dauntingly knowledgeable elders, some of whom are still with us today but some of whom have sadly moved on to exist ethereally among the celestial daimyo) and my first proper purchase in 2009. Perhaps, for someone with multiple hobbies and interests, the incremental gratification or utility derived from a sword / tsuba / fitting etc purchase might not equate to the gratification or utility derived from other activities or hobbies and hence people might spend earlier / faster / less on this hobby. Psychologically, also the burden of a larger expense made after a lengthy saving period is heavier, as opposed to a smaller and earlier purchase. Furthermore, nowadays with instant (and most importantly, English-language sword-related) information availability, the various social media proliferation and better social connectivity, I can understand very well how people are less patient. Perhaps they also feel more secure in an earlier / cheaper / smaller acquisition. We cannot impose on others what we feel is right for us or for our circumstances. Your approach is not a taboo but perhaps less popular and less endorsed by newcomers, given the world we live in today. Eventually people do learn to be more patient, once they are confronted with polishing or papering in Japan, which could mean years of being parted with one’s sword.

You seem very focussed on money. How about the fun, enjoyment and excitement that comes with collecting? The simple pleasure of owning something(s) that brings joy even at modest financial outlays. Obviously no-one would deliberately collect intending to lose 50%…..but all markets flux and there are no guarantees at any level. Its just my opinion, but apart from a few exceptions, Nihonto are not a good candidate for positive investment returns anyway and the higher up the ladder you go the more potential for disaster no matter how experienced you are. The air is very rarified at that altitude…..very few potential customers compared to lower down. There was a big sale in the USA a while ago, I believe it was a famous and very highly regarded collection. Many lovely very expensive things remained unsold…..and thus commercially heavily damaged in the marketplace.

Maybe trying to be 経家 (Tsuneie).

Per Markus Sesko "HIDEMITSU (秀光), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Hidemitsu” (秀光), real name Hirata Hideo (平田秀夫),born August 1st 1903, he worked as a guntō smith * https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords3/KY327965.htm

Dear Mark. Please forgive me if I'm stating the obvious but all to often a single description is not adequate, especially as you are conflating the shape of the return, the outline of the boshi and a description of the activity within the boshi. Typically Japanese descriptions are more nuanced and one for this might say something like, ' ko nie dominant choji continues beyond the yokote in midare komi where the boshi is o maru and brushed with nie'. You will have to fill in the description of the kaeri. It is sometimes possible to see a particular boshi and use that to move towards an attribution, sansaku boshi springs to mind, but all too often a simple classification just won't do. It's best to describe what you see rather than seek to assign a specific categorisation to it. Hope this helps a little. All the best.

Afraid this is a modern Chinese wallhanger, not a Japanese sword

I started my collecting based entirely on collecting gunto, I wanted one of each type ,95, nco etc then it got more refined the more i learnt. Gendaito, Copper nco etc etc Then i learnt more and moved closer to nihonto, collecting good smiths in gunto koshirae now i collect nihonto, more specifically ko-gassan. I went from £500 to £2000 then to £10,000 plus Would i have spent the higher end at the start of my collection? no. now i know what I do and don't know to a much higher degree and can be more confident in a purchase. Not just that; now I am closer to being able to appreciate what that price is getting me. But the final thing really is, even at the start of my collection , i loved the swords i had then, swords others would dismiss now as junk, they still sit there and are cleaned, oiled and kept well looked after. each one is a piece of my journey to where i am now in my knowledge and also while it may sound a little silly, those swords were crafted with care and sweat and deserve to be preserved.

Posting as a spoiler for those wanting to try on their own. Lid (which is fairly legible, and doesn't need to be put as a spoiler) says 与四郎　Yoshirō The one in red is kind of iffy, but from the context it feels like this is the only possibility. If the tsuba is hira-zōgan, then there is no question.

Many thanks for providing this list, it's been extremely helpful for my current translation project. I can make one contribution. The following is especially helpful when translating Imperial Navy terminology Japanese to English: United States Navy, Pacific Fleet and Pacific Ocean Areas - Japanese Military and Technical Terms, Bulletin 18-45. I was able to download it from Google at: https://books.google.com/books/about/Japanese_Military_and_Technical_Terms.html?id=PrU8AQAAIAAJ

Sorry Rayhan, I just don’t see any point in going into this level of hypothetical discussion. That statement seems to summarise your belief. I do not share that view.

Psychoterapy for free

I am speaking about how long anyone should wait before making a purchase. lets try for hypotheticals and in this scenario we older collectors might have experienced these issues that all newer collectors should hope to avoid. Let us say I want a Hizen blade. Hizen as a school was prolific in manufacture and there are so many options it is quite the conundrum. If I was new to the hobby or and older collector new to Hizen I would buy two different swords depending on the educational level. Education takes time, again Why is saving for a sword a taboo when it gives you time? A new collector might go in and say I want Hizen and I do not want to pay much so they will buy Hozon Hizen which is from a later generation, in an ok polish and has 3 mekugi ana, is suriage, has no koshirae and they will get exactly that for a stellar price. A more experienced collector may say I want to get Hizen from a certain generation and know why that generation and they may say I want it Ubu and Zaimei with date, etc and who is making the better purchase, the one who learned more obviously, saving does not mean not INVESTING TIME but gives us more options would you not say? Then you have the other spectrum where someone is looking at why Shodai is valued at this price and from this period who will look at Juyo oshigata for Shodai and see the variables, who will then look at Nidai in the same way and Mutsu in the same way and understand down the line why they are what they aren why they important as indiviual specimens. Maybe they cannot hope to own a Mutsu Juyo at 76CM nagasa in flawless condition but the fact that you understand and see has its own merritts as @Gakusee has stated. Beacuse you also understand what you see. How long you should wait to get to that point is up to you and as a person. The point I want to make is that if you want to sit with a sword for 20 years in your collection and eventually find that inflection point of when it is a good time to sell it minimizing the loss as much as possible, maybe realising a profit or etc, then it better be something that you want to look at for 20 years without having a feeling that, damn, I got this then I saw that now i need to sell this lose X amount (diminishing my budget for the next one that I want) saving to add to the loss and by the time I get to that point of what I want, the one i really wanted is gone and I have to wait all over again or settle for something that ,well, puts me back in square 1.

Please let us not assume my interest in monetary. I would like this to be a general discussion and not personalised in any form, gentlemanly. Market metrics asside assuming that you will make a loss before buying anything is not a good place to start on anything. Fun? I have had so much fun and met so many and seen in my collection of now vs my 150 swords in 2016 a lot of learning curves. I have sold off most of what was not in my wheel house or collecting direction anymore. If you spend time on anything you are automatically investing (time the greatest commodity) all our time has a value. Swords took me to Japan 6 times a year when I was still unmarried and fancy free whic in itself was time so well invested that I will never fail to see the ROI in this collecting field. The only place I feel cheated is when I have Sushi outside of Japan and have to pay rediculous prices, absolute robbery! I have it on fine authoritythat you yourself waited patiently for 8 years before making your first purchase a friend told me That is admirable and a lesson to everyone considering this hobby.

Had to look twice for that.

Thank you. For future reference some info. https://nihonto.com/sukesada/

Adding more pics with measuring tape. Wooden saya with black lacquer. Fuchi numbered 198 have chuso ana plugged. Sarute looks good and tassel is shorter then usual. Tsuba crudely finished boar eyes not fully carved. Rubber sits tight dunno if there is any kojiri. Edited - I measured and looks like it there is no cap at the end. [40.5cm length to rubber end.] I won't dissasemble saya. Overall fine package.

Shinto Yokoyama Sukesada.

Sorry, can't see any flood. On the Fuchi is a bridge over a stream depicted, on the Kashira foliage with glimpses of a roof and torii.

I do not see an issue here. The blade appears to be Showa era.

I believe it is Hirada Hidemitsu.

Nope, glad they’re all gone.

For me it's a Kunitsugu unokubi zukuri naginata of 53 cm, where the first 40 cm is double edged, which is quite rare. A very elegant piece, wonder where it ended up.

@Steve Waszak Is this your tsuba? If so, would you kindly share more photos with us? Truly, this is a stunning piece. Wow!!!

Your advice is very solid Rayhan, and I think it is wise for all of us to think about our decisions. Especially new people can buy something without thinking too much and if they would have waited for few months might be able to get an item that they enjoy much more. There was actually a recent thread where several of you guys were giving very solid info and recommendations to a new member. I do think that buying items is important to enjoy the collecting aspect of the hobby. I have fallen more into researcher category as I do enjoy that part immensely but I understand for most people it is the collecting that makes the hobby for them. So for collecting I think that buying & selling items is a major part of the enjoyment of this hobby. While it might not be optimal in terms of gathering funds for larger purchase, I would think it would be more enjoyable for many to have some items to enjoy while they save up for major purchase. Sure the money could be better invested in something else for 5 years for example and then used for larger purchase and it would be perfectly ok to do that too. For the low level items I think it is decently safe to get roughly the same investment back when reselling. Of course the initial investment need to be taken into consideration but if you have modern NBTHK papered item it will always sell for decent price outside Japan. The higher up you go in price the more variable it will get and people need to be cautious. For 2000€ sword losing 50% is only losing 1000€ or you could in lucky case get 150% and score 1000€ in your pocket in resale. Now think about 40,000€ sword and losing 50% is losing 20,000€. Of course you could in extremely lucky case sell it for profit but I think for a private person it will be more difficult to make profit on expensive swords, that is high end dealer playground. I can only imagine it would be extremely stressful to think about so large (money amount) fluctuations in price. As for personal collecting to maybe as a slight shock I don't care at all about the smiths/schools or quality... I don't actually want Masamune, Nagamitsu, Rai Kunitoshi etc. Currently even condition is bit irrelevant for me if I like the shape of the blade which for me is about the only thing that really matters. Even with unlimited budget my dream of personal collection would be 1. Muromachi period ōdachi 2. Muromachi period ō-naginata/nagamaki 3. Nanbokuchō period ōdachi 4. Nanbokuchō period ō-naginata/nagamaki Would it be completely irrational to choose a huge sword with condition issues and no papers over a pristine Tokubetsu Jūyō sword for example, of course. I know myself that I would enjoy that flawed ōdachi more than a very high level sword in my personal collection.

Sure 2-4 weeks. Never noticed longer term. Still all depends when prefecture will get notice about selling sword.

Posting here fuchi/kashira with flood motif I suppose https://ebay.us/m/3Dj7ut

I was told, the de-registration period, has been increased to 4wks. Anyone able to elaborate on this?

Not necessarily. Actually seven is a lucky number and many groups of seven are known, i.e. seven gods of good fortune, seven virtues, seven autumn plants (nanakusa) etc. There are many Tsuba with a composition made of seven like this: Sometimes the whole number out of seven is distributed on both sides.

Having hands on experience early on is quite valuable, until you see real quality in hand it's all theoretical. Once you know what something of good quality is, saving for it becomes far easier.

I always figure if the only meaningful collecting was sai-jo saku master smith's pieces, we'd only have books on that. But we don't. If it was just koto and shinto blades, we wouldn't have books on shinshinto. If it was just traditionally made blades, we wouldn't have militaria books on war-time swords and fittings but we do. There is enough depth in this field to really get deep into any one of many many sub-genres of Japanese swords. Masterwork collectors aren't better or more pure than gendaito collectors. Its all about one's preference and collecting goals.

It describes the life of Fukushima Sensei, to whom the stand was presented.

David, You have picked out two nice wakizashi, either of which is a better choice than most folks make when they catch the bug. The input you have received urges you to first ask yourself, why you have to make a decision tonight? Could there be an even better choice that you will enjoy more if you take a bit more time? As has been pointed out, there are many nice swords searching for a home. Don't get in a hurry. There is always another train, and another sword. Don't wait forever, but don't rush. Knowledge is your friend, and it is your best friend as you begin collecting unless you are incredibly lucky to have a true mentor in this area. One exceptional mentor in the Dallas area, Keith Evans, is no longer around. He was was a person of great knowledge and integrity who had the opportunity to study and learn while he lived in Japan in the early sixties. We used to have a small sword study group, but Keith passed away and the other key member returned to Japan to live. I saw there was an Austin based group mentioned, but it does not look as though they are very active. There are a good many opportunities to examine Japanese swords in the U.S., but they will probably involve some travel. There used to be some sword shows in Dallas and Houston, but no more. Sword offerings at most gun shows are pretty poor unless you are extremely lucky. Get some books, and take the time to travel to one or two shows so you can see and handle different swords. You are more likely to select one that will hold your interest in the long run if you take more time to study.

I think there's two ways of looking at it, I clearly see it happening in this topic. The view of a dealer and the view of a hobbyist. As a dealer you want something that is resellable, preferably gains value over time, and is priced in such a way that you can recoup the shipping and taxes if you sell it on. As a hobbyist, you want something you like, find interesting etc. and the sell-ability is not that important. Should a hobbyist care if they sell it later with a loss of 1K $? If you have a hobby car, you can lose that kind of money every year on maintenance. It's just money spent on your hobby. If I look at these two examples, I think they are interesting; the Nobuie one has an intestesting shape and Hamon, but as others said, it would be better without horimono; The one by Ikeda Ryuken Isshu has a tokuho certificate, but I worry that the boshi runs out of the kissaki; but I'm not 100% sure that is the case based on the pictures. I have no idea about the resellability of either blade, but as a collector perhaps you don't care that much. What you might ask from a collectors perspective is: "can I get something better for my budget?" For that question you should define what "better" means for you. For me the weird horimono and the possible boshi problem would be a pass, but if I had to pick I'd go for Nobuie.

Davo Your hell bent on buying a sword no matter the advice, Go for it sometimes it's good learning tool. We get several ppl like you a year. You know how many are left, not many. So I said get it out of your system if it's a mistake you learn from it, if it's hit all the better for you.

David, I agree with Lex. If you don't want to travel to Orlando or Chicago for a large sword show, there may be smaller groups in Texas where you can get up close and personal with some blades: "For Texas-specific events, check with the Texas Token Kai in Austin for potential local meetings or unlisted shows: contact John Stewart at txtokenkai@hotmail.com. Updates can also be found on sites like www.japaneseswordindex.com or www.ncjsc.org, as show schedules may change." - Grok.

David, I think it is wise to calm down, and take some time to get to know Nihonto. I would advise against buying any blade in this state of mind. You will need to indulge yourself in the hobby first. Go to a sword meet-up close to you to view some swords in real life. This will help you to truly understand the hobby and what you want to own. If you are in no particular rush now, then the best thing to do is wait. Greetings, Lex

Dave, Time is your friend. You don’t have to rush this: your sword money will still be in the bank when you know enough to make a more informed decision.

David, I replied to you previously on Reddit. It is likely that the Nobuie has an atobori horimono (a recent/modern carving that is not original to the blade). It would not be a huge surprise to me if the horimono was done by a gendai smith associated with the Gassan school.

I use Renapur leather basalm, brings back the suppleness of the leather and helps to protect the leather

Another good product is the Nivea cream. Works well on aged leather, with no blackening effect.

WOW I doubt they've even received the item yet, and it looks like they're even reusing the goodwill pictures ! Bummer, -Sam

I recently received 4 antique swords from a Japanese dealer. Flat rate shipping fee but no additional fees. arrived in 10 days, no issues whatsoever.

I would second the idea that it depicts mist rather than a flood, although I can't explain the angle of the Toriii, which looks very odd. Best, Tom

Dear Jusyn. I am wondering if the treatment suggest mist partially obscuring the Torii and temple. (I am having trouble with the angle of the torii, visually I find it disturbing!) All the best.