Scogg

Thank you Bruce! Every SUYA brass tsuba that I have been able to see the side opening clearly, has the "wide opening" with one singular exception in the 80k range (maybe could be way to tell if a tsuba swap occured). Also all of the Variation#1 copper swords have the wider opening. Good for the data nonetheless! Much appreciated. So far my data suggests that Suya, and 'Sakura Ichi' stamped swords all have the wide opening. Iijima Variation#2 swords also have the wide opening. GIFU starts their run with the narrow opening in their Variation#2 swords and beyond. Iijima appears change to the narrow opening to start their Variation#3 swords. Mizuno, with very little data, appears to have used the narrow opening. It would be very interesting to see examples that both have a seki ferrule stamp and brass tsuba. I suspect they have the narrow opening like the ones with Gifu stamps. My sample size feels far too small to draw any really hard conclusions; but it's an interesting little detail and the patterns above are beginning to emerge. Best, -Sam

Well said Dereks. Dan, please read that dealers words carefully. After you prompted the question about stars without mentioning shippo, did he say specifically that your tsuba is depicting constellations? If you asked him “does this depict shippo or something else?” without mentioning stars, don’t you think the reply would have been different? You’re manipulating the conversation to support your argument, and then using it here. If I were in his shoes, I would not appreciate that. If you’re so proud of your topic views, why not send the dealers the link to this discussion? Give them the whole context. That would be fair if you’re going to quote their words for your argument, right? Just because you take offense at being called out for this same exact behavior over and over and over again, doesn’t mean people are slinging insults. As far as insults, you’re the one calling us all names like smarta**. Personally I’d rather be a smarta** than the opposite. Onward and out for me. This is just ridiculous at this point. If you don’t get what we’re saying by now, you just never will. -Sam

I appreciate the correction, thank you. I should have known because I have a sword with very similar menuki, that are the same style shiode fasteners (but without crop). I’m quite fond of them. You helped me identify them here a couple years ago in another thread. *** @Bugyotsuji I have edited my comment to add the thread, some other examples can be found there. I've learned so much since then! https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45159-help-me-identify-menuki/. I actually have some mixed info in my notes, because someone once told me they were falconers tools. Rereading that old thread, I should have never doubted ya'll; and it's funny how time and repetition can muddy the waters of memory.*** That explains why these came up when I searched my images for “falconers”. But thankfully they’re still relevant. Thanks again! -Sam

Falconer utensils is one of my favorite motif’s. I don’t see them very often. At the link below, if you scroll down a ways. Notice the tool “EGOUSHI (Feed Box)” has a mon, and looks similar to your menuki. But in this link, the item that looks like a rod, the “BUCHI”, has a specific purpose of cleaning the beak and cleaning feathers, it is sharpened on one end and brush-like on the other. https://www.falconryheritage.org/uploads/itemUploads/2075/NakajimaManuscript-IAF2009.pdf Here’s a nice example from the same book that I referenced above: (Edit: Incorrect caption. Example is riding crop and riding equipment. Comments below.) I’m still leaning horse equipment. But it’s interesting to compare and try to figure it out. Best, -Sam

Hi @Joel Lundqvist I'm going to relocate your topic to the "General Nihonto Related Discussion" section. I think you will get better input over there. It's my understanding that Honoki (magnolia) is commonly used, but i'm no expert. -Sam

Anything with the words shippo and constellation in the same sentence? Correlating this known design pattern with the other. Anything beyond simple pattern similarity

I already did before I got involved. Reading your other thread is actually what motivated me to speak up here. I suggest you do the same. Zen mind, beginners mind. Imagine you're trying to learn, and find yourself on one of your discussions. I'm doing that in real time, and spending hours looking for any sources that reliably correlate these fragmented shippo designs to constelations. Have you tried doing that, or is that a task for us and not you? If so, would you mind sharing your findings? I'm coming up empty. I'm not talking about googling images to compare, we can all do that, and we have seen why it's the basis of your hypothesis. -Sam

My own knowledge? To be clear, I don't know if there's a connection or not. I don't have knowledge on this subject, and I would actually love to learn; even if your theory were to be correct! But to learn anything, I need some source material, period document, something published, maybe nbthk papers or older papers, or expert input that corroborates your theories. The reason I may seem frustrated, is because members have been begging for such material from you for what feels like a long time now across discussions. The repeated failure to produce such material and push the idea anyway turns what was a completely reasonable hypothosis into what now seems like a conspiracy theory. I will not lock your threads. I wont do any moderator actions because i'm clearly involved, and my judgement would be viewed as being compromised. I'm just another member trying to learn about fittings, and getting lost down these rabbit holes to nowhere. -Sam

Much appreciated Tony, thank you! Yes indeed the Variation#1 tsuba would be different, as it should be 11mm thick and with the wider opening. To me it looks like your Gifu and Iijima both have the narrow opening. I edited my image a little to better show that difference. The wider opening is not only wider, but it has that little ^ shaped notch that mimics the shape of the rim (you can see how this looks on your copper hilt sword); whereas the narrow opening version has a flat surface there with the dimpling. I hope that makes sense, it's challenging to articulate some of the finer little details. Nice looking collection! Those Gifu Variation#2 swords are hard to come by. All the best, and thanks again. -Sam

Arguments and drama generate clicks. That's why reality TV is popular. This forum is supposed to be about education and evidence over entertainment. You seem remarkably proud of the attention you've generated, but views are not validation. If they were, every conspiracy theory on the internet would become historical fact. You've still failed to produce what actually matters: period documentation, contemporary references, or credible scholarship or experts supporting your claims of these partial shippo designs representing constellations. Instead, we're expected to accept, "It looks similar, therefore it must be connected. Now it’s up to you to prove me wrong! But why bother because my opinion insulates me from accepting anything else anyway! Onward!". A hypothesis without evidence remains a hypothesis, no matter how many times it's repeated. Pattern similarities may be interesting, but it’s not proof. What's disappointing is that there is a genuinely interesting discussion to be had about star motifs, casting methods, and other manufacturing techniques. Instead, it's been buried beneath circular arguments that never move beyond personal interpretation because no supporting evidence ever materializes. Likely because it’s not there, and the suggestion that it ever was is only coming from one stubborn individual. The real casualty isn't your reputation, it's the quality of discussion on this forum. New collectors come here expecting to learn history, not watch unsupported theories get repeated until they sound familiar. I imagine that serious researchers don't avoid these threads because they're afraid of debate; they avoid them because debate without evidence is a waste of time and engaging in conspiracy theories damages this hobby and real historical study. If your goal is historical understanding, then produce historical evidence. If your goal is engagement, congratulations, you've succeeded. Just don't confuse one with the other. Honestly, I’d lock or delete that casting thread if it were up to me. Start a new one with more education and facts, and less speculation and bickering. -Sam

Thanks for thinking of me! For the monograph in the download section, unfortunately no. My current goal is to collect each variation and personally take my own photographs. They have to be my own taken photos for me to have legal rights over the images. So that part is all on-me to source the remaining variations, photograph them, and populate my document with 100% self taken photos. I am about 80% of the way complete with this part of the project, but I still need Variation 6, 7, and 9. (of course those are the three that are hardest to find ). That said, there are a couple mysteries I'm trying to get to the bottom of, that I need more data for. That means swords serial numbers, stamps, and the features in question shown. 1. MENUKI... When looking at the cast menuki flowers and the stamen specifically, some have engraved stamen details (left), while others have raised stamen details (right). I'd love to gather more data on this, and see if I can determine which subcontractors/arsenals utilized each respective type, and figure out if/when changes were made to the stamen. This is a feature that can be seen on officers swords too, something I'm not sure if anyone knows very much about. It's a weird one, and a very fine detail! 2. BRASS TSUBA... There appears to be at least 2 different types of brass tsuba that were fitted onto Type 95 swords. One has a wider opening with a notch that corresponds to the shape of the rim (see below, tsuba on the left). While the other has a more narrow opening that is more cleanly "oval" or "pill" shaped (see below, tsuba on the right). I've been gathering data on both these features, and am making some progress and loose theories. But the rhyme or reason and who used what/when still alludes me. My sample size is just too small. All the best, -Sam

Hi Tony, Unfortunately I cannot help you with your question; but I have one of my own. Is that tsuka very small, or is the tassel really large? Or is it a trick of perspective?

Whatever item behind the “crop” is; it has the “four diamonds” kamon often associated with the Takeda clan. (Popular kamon were frequently reused, so this is not necessarily a connection). Below is an alternative path to look into, although with what looks like rope in the back, I am still favoring the idea that it’s a horse crop, parts, and tackle. Alternatively, maybe a walking cane? It would explain why the “crop” looks thick. Images below from my only menuki book:

@Kristie posted the 95 in a separate topic. I helped identify it there. It’s a real one. No need to take it apart, this type of sword (Type 95) should remain assembled. Kristie, you also posted that sword in the for sale section. It’s required by rule to have a price in any for sale listing. Please add an additional comment to that post with your asking price, and see the link below for a template that has information perspective buyers will want to know. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43260-sword-sale-template-sellers-please-note/#comment-583624 Best, -Sam