Tsuba casting molds ?

[Spartancrest]

 

3 hours ago, Robert S said:

Some enthusiastic museum "curator" bought.

The museum [Saint Louis Art Museum] was a little reluctant to "invest" in buying many tsuba, they did purchase 19 out of their collection of 385. The rest were made up of two bequests one of 24  and the bulk 342.

 

The "tsuba" in question had to have been made well prior to 1929 - the date when the original owner/donator died [Mr. John M. Wulfing]. What we don't have is the date he purchased it in the first place. The museum acquired it in 1949 after it had been on loan since 1937.  

 

I guess if there is anything to take away from this, it is to keep good records of when and if possible from whom you have bought your collection - someday someone might want to know where it came from! 

 

The museum could have replaced their broken guard for a more "intact" version [but still cast!]  https://www.jauce.com/auction/t1181766034 

 https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/Japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/x1122817965/     https://jp.mercari.com/item/m24767039534    https://jp.mercari.com/item/m89900590068

https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/1hilt73/mystery_tanto/?rdt=42410   This one mounted on a tanto with some gold applied. 

 

if you want to see what the guard should look more like see   https://collections.mfa.org/objects/11570  

[Robert S]

Just now, Spartancrest said:

if you want to see what the guard should look more like see   https://collections.mfa.org/objects/11570  

Wow, that's more like it!  So I guess this does put a date on when cast "copies" started to be made.

[Spartancrest]

23 minutes ago, Robert S said:

So I guess this does put a date on when cast "copies" started to be made.

There are earlier examples in published collections such as a rather common "Shachihoko" found in Michael Tomkinson's collection of Japanese art published in 1898  item 378. 

The sticking point is once again, when he acquired it? Before 1868 or closer to the date of publication 1898 some 30 years after the Edo period?  Regardless it was made well before the twentieth century.

 

 

Like this one with the 'pearl' above the lips [there is a version with the pearl in the mouth] https://www.aoijapan.net/tsuba-mumei-shachihoko/

[Spartancrest]

   From Cornell University  -  

Quadrifoil Ken tsuba

ca. 17th century     ------ Oh if we could only prove it!

 

   Also from Cornell University  -  

Tsuba with deer and maple leaves

Unidentified artist

 

 

The two cast guards show a little time displacement - between "crap" and "rusty crap" but they still take up space in a museum!

[Steves87]

15 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

   From Cornell University  -  

Quadrifoil Ken tsuba

ca. 17th century     ------ Oh if we could only prove it!

 

   Also from Cornell University  -  

Tsuba with deer and maple leaves

Unidentified artist

 

 

The two cast guards show a little time displacement - between "crap" and "rusty crap" but they still take up space in a museum!

And in case you want to see an example of this theme that isn't cast: 

[Robert S]

I wonder why Cornell is hanging on to the "rusty crap" one.  It would make sense if they were making a point about cast multiples, and especially if they had good provenance on one or both of them... but no evidence of that, although it might be worth digging into.  Other than that, it appears that Cornell has a special focus on scrap metal collecting... but there are much more interesting types of scrap metal out there than that.  Personally I go for gears out of 1950's and earlier manual transmissions :-)

[Spartancrest]

 

57 minutes ago, Robert S said:

Personally I go for gears out of 1950's and earlier manual transmissions :-)

Well a good spot to drop a great article from the late/great Gary Montgomery. https://www.tsukamaki.net/PDF/gary_montgomery01.pdf  He could have gone down the wrong path - but chose the even "wronger" one  

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

So, on page 8 of this thread (posted November 18, 2022) I showed a cast iron bottle opener made by traditional casting techniques by the Suzuki Morihisa family of Japan.

 

“Origin of the Suzuki Morihisa family-

 

The family is currently in its 16th generation, and they continue to produce tea kettles, iron kettles, and other ironware using traditional techniques that have been passed down through the generations.”

 

Well, I saw an interesting cast iron tea tray on their website (included below)-

 

https://suzukimorihisa.com/en/collections/iron-accessories/products/%E5%A4%A9%E8%93%8B%E8%8C%B6%E6%89%98

 

I have included a couple of pictures of the tea tray below.

 

It is interesting how they can accomplish such detail on and in cast iron that is cast using the traditional techniques.

 

Just saying, it is interesting!

 

 

[MauroP]

Here a cast iron tea kettle from the Tokyo National Museum, clearly dated in Muromachi period, 15th century. A very fine casting know-how was available in Japan in that period. That imply that casting tsuba was a possibility. Pre-Edo Japanese tsuba makers used to cast iron tsuba? Probably no.

I remember an old Italian TV sketch based on the dialogue between an elegant interviewer and a rude artisan, whose aim  was to obtain from a big wood log a single toothpick after months of heavy work. 
Casting iron tsuba in Edo period (or even earlier) would possibly offer the same same approach that the fictious tootpick maker considered rational.

[Dan tsuba]

3 years.  This thread has been going on for over 3 years!

Bottom line.

Either you think that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period, or not.

Until an inexpensive metallurgical test to discern between hand forged iron and cast iron is invented, it is just everyone’s best guess if a questionable tsuba (is it hand forged or cast?) that was stated to be made in the Edo period is hand forged or cast iron.

The next time you purchase a tsuba that is stated to be made in the Edo period, ask the dealer for a guarantee that the tsuba is hand forged and not cast iron.

Tell me about the reply that you received!

Onward!

[ROKUJURO]

[zanilu]

 

Ah, ah 

[Scogg]

Imagine acquiring your very first Tsuba, and you're wondering if it might be cast. You do some googling, and find yourself here with 19 pages to sift through - only to find a lot of arguments and hypothetical ideas. 

How frustrating that must be . 
Beating a dead horse is right...
-Sam

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Scogg said:

only to find a lot of arguments and hypothetical ideas. 

Let's not forget plenty of images to compare and extensive research.  TBF

 

[Scogg]

True, and I think it could have been a valuable discussion. I guess my point was that anything worth while is a needle in a haystack now.
 

Here I am, not helping that situation . In hindsight, I should not have interjected. 

 

I re-read this today, it’s a good write up and very interesting. 

https://markussesko.com/2016/01/20/cast-sword-fittings/

 

-Sam 

[Robert S]

On 6/3/2025 at 7:41 PM, Scogg said:

I re-read this today, it’s a good write up and very interesting. 

https://markussesko.com/2016/01/20/cast-sword-fittings/

 

-Sam 

This is very interesting.  It definitely indicates that cast tsuba were being made in the 17th century, but only gives evidence for non-iron cast tsuba.  It would be interesting to see whether there is any evidence or examples of cast bronze/brass/shakudo tsuba survive.  Particularly, it would be interesting to catalogue the fragments of moulds found, and see if those can be matched to any existing tsuba, iron or not.

 

I love archaeology :-)

[OceanoNox]

That's the issue with this thread, as raised earlier (and I know I am contributing to the problem, but at this point, it's too late): all the interesting information is hard to find.

The reference to that paper (cast sword fitting in brass) has been given at some earlier point. Just like the mention of cast iron items, like chagama, and the process of doing it (cast the cast iron, then decarburize, finish the surface, then patinate it).

Cast iron tsuba are currently made by iai equipment maker Nosyudo, but I am not familiar with their process (I suspect it's similar to the one above).

 

Reference on non-ferrous cast tsuba in Nara: 

刀装具鋳型の三次元分析からみた近世鋳造技術の研究 (2018 年度科学研究費（奨励研究）研究成果報告書, 研究課題番号：18H00015)

[Bugyotsuji]

I was holding a yamagane/odo tsuba the other day and asked casually if these would have been cast. A few eyes flicked around the room, as if looking for higher confirmation, and then after a some pregnant seconds, 'yes' came the answer. A room full of artisans, too.

[ROKUJURO]

The blank of soft metal TSUBA is always cast with the exception of MOKUME GANE. Some are completely cast with decoration included, some of those are reworked then manually, and finished.
A bunch of different techniques.

Ford Hallam has often explained this.

[Brian]

Indeed. Do people think that makers purchased milled billets of material to machine down on their fancy milling machines before they started work on them? Ford has shown how blanks were cast, before they started work on the tsuba. Showing how soft metal tsuba were cast really does add nothing to this original topic. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I know many of you are saying, “oh no, not again”!  But hey, give me a break.  I am an old retired guy that is really interested in this cast iron tsuba thing!

 

I found some good information I wanted to share about the different cast iron techniques that kettle makers use.

 

I am not saying that kettle makers made cast iron tsuba in the Edo period, although I personally believe that is a definite possibility.

 

“Nambu ironware is fashioned through two distinct techniques: Nama-gata, involving sand molds, and Yaki-gata, utilizing clay molds fired in a kiln. Given that this particular Tetsubin is crafted using the Yaki-gata method, only a limited number of pieces can be produced from a single mold. Hence, its rarity is noteworthy.”

From this website-

 

https://oitomi.com/products/nambu-ironware-iron-kettle-houju-matsuba-1-4l-shokado-by-traditional-craftsman-shingo-kikuchi?srsltid=AfmBOopBJIeSSTmAQuuQaBAvPDBuOrMEEYo2Bf-i0WiNYJbyHESCiai-

 

Also,

“<Process of Yakigata>

    Create a design and make a cross-section of it into a wooden model (mold plate).

    Use the wooden model to create a casting mold by spinning a potter's wheel while mixing sand and clay (mold turning).

    Attach patterns such as arare (hailstone) or sakura (cherry blossom) to the casting mold.

    Dry the casting mold and fire it at around 1200 degrees Celsius.

    Pour iron heated to 1400-1500 degrees Celsius into the casting mold.

    Remove the iron from the casting mold, remove the core, and fire it at 800-900 degrees Celsius (kiln firing).

    Polish the surface, bake the lacquer at 300 degrees Celsius, and apply color.

 

Compared to the manufacturing method called "nama-gata," which involves making molds only with river sand, the yakigata method requires a longer time for mold shaping and can only cast a few pieces from one mold. Consequently, iron kettles made using the yakigata technique tend to be more expensive. However, each Nambu iron kettle crafted using this traditional method exhibits a delicate and beautiful pattern, reflecting its unique charm that has been cherished since ancient times.”

From the below website-

 

https://oitomi.com/blogs/articles/the-world-of-nanbu-iron-kettles-by-traditional-craftsman-shingo-kikuchi?srsltid=AfmBOoplfwCzBcq09DCBYJ9nQT4bQcSy2NGsBTCdIabR6HMl3qEe8J8

 

Just some more insights I thought may be of interest to some.

 

Onward!

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Just passing on this information I found on the internetj (hey, I have nothing better to do on a Sunday!).

 

I think some may find it of interest.

 

From a dealer in Japan on the below website-

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/tsubacastiron.html

 

“I think it is important to separate Iron tsuba into two kinds that Steel tsuba and Cast Iron tsuba.
Tsuba of Cast Iron

68mm x 62mm x 5.6mm

Sometimes cast iron tsuba seems a little small somehow. It may come from the shrinking of casting work. This piece may be a copy from a tsuba of Akasaka school or so, but the seppadai and kozuka/kogai holes are smaller than normal size.

When the seam mark was filed off, it is a little difficult to figure out the trick of cast iron tsuba.

By careful study, you may find that the rust condition is a little strange to steel and the cut out surface seems a little dull.


They look made in 18th century or 19th century. We have never seen cast iron tsuba from the Koto period (16th century or older)” 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

This may not fit in with this thread - but when did the NBTHK start certifying mass produced tsuba?   First off, I have no idea if the papers are "real" I can't read kanji but I recognise a mass produced "shippo" design that turns up in the thousands. https://www.jauce.com/auction/c1188041144 "Traditional Nagasaki" Early Edo Period Butterfly and Peony Design. A rare original Shippou Tsuba"  REALLY! 

 

 

see: https://www.katanacenter.com/316 Tsuba couple Daisho enamel.html  this company clearly states "First half of the Shōwa era 昭和" 

 

The incredibly "rare" ebay examples  https://www.ebay.com/itm/316158776912  https://www.ebay.com/itm/396607088190   https://www.ebay.com/itm/286198233512

Even more "rare" from Japan - https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/u1055807796  https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n1186861675  and buy in bulk 

https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h1136698250 These are endless, mass produced - but hey, the papers are what people want to see. Papers separate the fool from his money.

[MauroP]

I've found questionable attributions in both NBTHK and NTHK (BTW the above is a NTHK paper, not NBTHK). But in some NTHK papers even the mere description of a tsuba is sometimes incompatible with the object shown in the accompany picture.

[MauroP]

About certifying mass produced tsuba, I wish to remind that "sanmai tsuba" or Kyo-kanagushi tsuba (wich weresurely mass produced) are commonly papered by NBTHK. Here the problem is that the NTHK paper states that the tsuba is from Edo age...

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, MauroP said:

The problem is that the NTHK paper states that the tsuba is from Edo age...

Do the papers mention who does the assessment - the actual person? If people had that information they might boycott that inspectors opinion. Who gets to judge the judges? Is there a test these people have to pass in order to make these "informed" opinions and are they ranked in any way? Clearly if someone is paying for these papers they could/should get their money back.

[MauroP]

3 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Do the papers mention who does the assessment - the actual person?

That's the personal signets of the actual members of the shinsa.

[Dan tsuba]

So, from what I gather from MauroP, four experts thought that the mass produced tsuba shown in the post by Spartancrest was made in the  Edo period?

 

Anyway, here is an interesting thread from 2011 stating some information about cast iron tsuba and kettle makers (and some other interesting information)-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7626-tosa-kuni-ju-myochin-munetoshi/

 

Onward!

 

[Curran]

On 6/9/2025 at 7:34 AM, MauroP said:

That's the personal signets of the actual members of the shinsa.

 

As reliable Mauro says:   NTHK papers with the mark of the 4 judges. 

Don't ask me which. I don't read chops very well, though I was given one by my family in Japan.

Those "noodle bowl" chops are beyond me to read at this time.

 

This NTHK one does seem pertinent to the old discussion thread.

Hagihara-san was part of one of the NTHK shinsa teams for a long time. Up to 2004 to 2006??? , the papers were solid. I papered a few items with them back then.

Since then, I know little of their shinsa team.

 

(edit)

Papers look recent Reiwa era. Ie. They are relatively recent papers.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

Just to be clear this is an NPO paper and not the one and true NTHK...

 

-tch