Dan tsuba

Hello all! So, I just received a response to my question from another antique tsuba dealer in Japan. I sent the dealer the same question and pictures of the tsuba as I sent to the other dealer that gave me their response (that question, response, and pictures can be read and seen in one of my previous posts). The dealer’s response was- “Dear Dan san Thank you for your message. Thanks send me picture. Yes, I think, too. Maybe Big Dipper. What do you think? Thank you!” Notice that there is no hesitation in the reply. The star pattern was immediately identified as “Maybe Big Dipper” (although my personal opinion is that it is the Little Dipper). Nothing was stated by the dealer about the pattern being anything else. Not a Shippo type pattern, or any other type of pattern.

So all, For a couple of days, I have been trying to research the several books that I have (and the internet) to see if I can find out anywhere if it was ever stated that the motif I termed as “star maps” and "constellations" was ever mentioned anywhere. No luck yet. But then again there is the following problem (taken from AI)- “It is impossible to provide an exact number of untranslated Edo period texts, but historians estimate that over 3 million books, documents, and manuscripts have survived from this era (1603–1868). Only a tiny fraction have been translated or transcribed into modern Japanese, leaving the vast majority of historical material largely untouched.” Also from AI- “Translating all of Japan's Edo period (1603–1868) texts—estimated at over 3 million preserved manuscripts and books—is an impossible task to fully quantify. Because the sheer volume is so immense, the translation process is estimated to take hundreds of thousands of man-hours and would require generations of scholars and advanced AI.” So, perhaps a possible description of the motif of star maps (or constellations) on a tsuba is out there, but it may take at least another 50 years (or longer) to be able to refer to it (of course by that time, I will have long been pushing up daisies!).

Hello all! So, in his post, Dereks stated “I won’t be replying to your response, so don’t bother”. Well then, let me just throw this out there to whomever is there! Derek also stated, “The dealer clearly explained how star patterns are depicted on tsuba, and he does not agree that your shippo patterns are actually star constellations”. I don’t know, it seems to me that the question that I asked the dealer which was- “I have included 2 pictures of the same tsuba below. Could you please give me your opinion on what that design on the tsuba is. Is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else?” That question is very explicit, first it asks his "opinion on what that design on the tsuba is" and then it is asking "is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else?" I mean that seems like a very clear question to me! And his reply (shown in one of my above posts) is very clear also! Then Dereks goes on to further state “And let me remind you that Japanese dealers are dealers, not researchers. Most simply don’t care enough to investigate these theories.” Is he implying that the Japanese antique tsuba dealers don’t know what they are talking about? I don’t know where he got that opinion from! Oh well! Anyway, I found another picture of what I believe is a star map tsuba. That tsuba is shown below. Now, the way that I interpret that motif is clouds and star constellations. The motif on the bottom is showing 2 clouds and a constellation. The motif on the top is showing 1 cloud and a constellation. Anyway, that is how I interpret it. Onward, the “puzzlemaster” (if you read this thread, you will know where I got that from!).

Wow! All I hear (since my last post) is silence on this thread. It is like the sound of crickets in the night- chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp, is all that can be heard! What happened to all the smart-ass comments from some members that they so readily were willing to contribute? What happened to the “beating a dead horse emoji” that someone thought was so clever? Just asking! Not only that, I have some more emails to antique tsuba dealers in Japan that I may get a response to. If I receive a response from those antique tsuba dealers in Japan, I will add them to this thread. Onward, the “puzzlemaster”!

Hello all, Now moving on from all the insults. A few days ago, I sent emails to a few antique dealers (that deal with tsuba) that are in Japan. This is the email I sent- “Sir, With respect- I have included 2 pictures of the same tsuba below. Could you please give me your opinion on what that design on the tsuba is. Is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else? With respect, Dan” Now, the pictures that I included in that email above are shown below. I just received my first response from a dealer in Japan (I don’t feel it is necessary to state the business name of the dealer or the name of the person responding). That email response is- “Dear Dan, Thank you for your message and for the photographs of the tsuba. A design of scattered dots or small circles on a tsuba often represents stars, and such motifs are sometimes intended to depict specific constellations. In Japanese sword fittings, star motifs are frequently associated with the Myoken (North Star) faith, and arrangements such as the Big Dipper (Hokuto Shichisei) are not uncommon. Kind regards,”

Zanilu (Luca) of course (as you stated above) "I was expecting your downvote Dan". That is because you knew that you were being an ass! As far as I am concerned your beating a dead horse emoji is childish. As I see it, you are the deadhorse and I am the one holding the stick! Just because you have those "like", "heart", and "ha, ha," emojis doesn't mean you are clever. You forget that this is a worldwide forum, and your smart ass attitude (and ignorance) is obvious to everyone. Maybe that is why this forum doesn't seem to have any new members that stay on it very long. Because eventually, they will run into someone like you! If you have nothing to contribute to a thread, other than a smart ass comment and an emoji, maybe you should find another hobby!

Sam, Have you read this thread and my posts and have seen the constellations, the old star charts, the current star charts, and the similarity of star patterns that I am referring to compared to those star map tsuba? You stated "Have you tried doing that, or is that a task for us and not you?" Are you trying to be rude to me? If so, KMA (maybe you need to look that up, but with your know it all attitude, I am certain you know what it means!). What evidence can I provide that will convince you of the star patterns shown on those tsuba? Let me know and I will try to find it. The "puzzlemaster".

Sam, My advice to you is read the threads I presented (and the evidence) with an open mind. Zen mind, beginners mind. Enter the thread without any preconceived ideas. Only in that way can you gain knowledge.

Sam, Blah, blah, blah. I don't think you really know what you are talking about and are just impressed with your own knowledge. Do what you want. Lock my threads. Personnaly, I don't give a rat's ass (or ars depending on who is reading this!). The "puzzlemaster"!

Well, Florian, I did not misinterpret you (as you stated). I just put a quote from you on this thread together with a quote from you on another thread to display how your opinion changes from one thread to another. And you can try to put me down about my thread about cast iron tsuba (actually that thread is titled "Tsuba casting molds"). Nice try, but no cigar! That thread has about 66.3 K views. Evidently that thread (as this one at 2K views) has a lot of people looking at it that don’t want to add anything to it; they are probably just trying to learn from the threads (hey, and that is what it is all about!). Now, as far as this forum is concerned. People can put their “likes” and “loves” emoji on those people that they support. But that emoji support doesn’t make the opinion of that person and his post automatically correct! I refer you to what I stated in my other post above! Onward, the “puzzlemaster”!

Well Sam, Evidently this back and forth is getting us nowhere fast! Firstly, I didn’t say you have a beginners mind. I stated, “then it appears to me that you don’t have a Zen mind, beginners mind.” So, be advised. I received my bachelor's degree in 1976; I received my master's degree in 1981. Like I use to tell my troops (yes, I served 16 years active duty in the U.S. military) “when it comes to a battle of wits with me, you come unarmed”. Just food for thought. Onward, the puzzlemaster!

Hi Sam, Anyway, I like the title of “puzzlemaster”. You suggested it and I will use it! As far as your statement “I suggest if you wish to gain that title; you have to actually complete one of the puzzles you've fabricated from nowhere. So far you're just pointing at your puzzle and saying "look a missing piece!" ; and then pretending like you found it because "patterns similar". If that makes you a puzzle-master, then I'm the Pope.” No need to be rude (my opinion). If you don’t think that I haven’t completed a puzzle (that you think-incorrectly-that I fabricated from nowhere), then it appears to me that you don’t have a Zen mind, beginners mind. Like I stated in a previous post, you can’t add tea to a teacup that is already full. Just as you can’t add knowledge to a mind that is already full. Maybe if you had studied astronomy, the stars, and constellations (as I have) you might (quite literally) see things differently. As far as your suggestion of using the quote function, thanks. I will think about it. Onward, the puzzlemaster!

Hi Florian, Thanks for your ideas and suggestions in your post (although backing up your statements with pictures and/or references would have been desirable). Yes, I know and have stated in a previous post in this threat showing the old Japanese star chart that the number of stars is not identical to the tsuba and I also stated something like that there are a lot of stars out there to add to any constellation. Now, as far as I am concerned, (especially in the pattern of that constellation) the match is close enough. I also now think that the constellation shown on the star map tsuba is the Little Dipper. If you refer to the caption under the star chart (in that previous post of mine), you will see where it is stated that the stars shown in the circle are centered on the North Pole. That is exactly the location of the Little Dipper, and it is the constellation that I circled in blue on that star chart. I don’t think all of this is a coincidence. Then you stated, “While the sun and especially the moon are ubiquitous in Japanese art, poetry etc. the stars are as far as possible ignored.” Well, I found on this thread below a quote from you that I quote part of below; “In Your case the motif is stars, so I think we have a kamon constisting out of a stellar group and three other stars on the right side.” Then you can go to this website below- https://irohakamon.com/kamon/hoshi/juuboshi.html Scroll down somewhat until you see all the kamon with stars. So, as you stated, “the stars are as far as possible ignored”. Well, I don’t think so! And I believe that some tsuba artisans made some tsuba to depict star maps (constellations). Onward, the "puzzlemaster" (referring to what Sam S. referred to me as in one of his posts on this thread!).

Florian, In your post at the top of this page (page 3) you stated "With all due respect – I can see no sense in harping on Your theory without solid evidence." Well, if you refer to my post above showing an old Japanese star chart with a constellation almost identical (or exactly identiclal-depending on how you interpret it) compared to a star map tsuba (that I also showed a picture of) what more solid evidence do you need? Let me know, and I will see if I can find the evidence that will convince you.