Tsuba casting molds ?

[MauroP]

2 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Just to be clear this is an NPO paper and not the one and true NTHK...

I thought NPO (usually in brackets after NTHK) means "non profit organization". Surely I'm missing something...

[Toryu2020]

Mauro - there was a split in the NTHK several years back, the pretenders called themselves the NTHK (NPO) - this is their work...

[Spartancrest]

10 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

the pretenders

    Yeah that would explain a lot! 

[Dan tsuba]

So here are some pictures of some tsuba with the same motif from this forum thread-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/52786-silver-ring-in-tsubas/

 

It looks to me like the first picture shown is a cast iron tsuba and it is not done very welll and shows many inconsistencies (my opinion).

 

Whether the tsuba shown in the first picture here (which I believe is cast iron) was made in the Edo period or not is something that can probably never be determined.

 

But the fact that it has a fukurin on it and sekigane in the nakago-ana is of interest.

 

The other pictures shown are examples from that thread of well made hand forged and hand cut tsuba (also my opinion) with the same motif.

 

Thoughts?

 

[FlorianB]

I don’t think it’s cast. As I wrote in the other thread my idea is that this Tsuba is just in the state of an intermediate step. The basic form was produced but a final exact execution is missing for what reason ever. Maybe a customer was fond of the blurred design. 

 

The second example is of poor quality and the Akasaka-label on the third is nonsense.

This Yodo-bridge-design is typical Kyo-Sukashi (or later Daigoro) and the gilding must be a subsequent addition.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Florian,

 

Thanks for your post and your opinions about that tsuba.

 

I get it and understand what you are saying.

 

I quote part of your post below-

“I don’t think it’s cast. As I wrote in the other thread my idea is that this Tsuba is just in the state of an intermediate step. The basic form was produced but a final exact execution is missing for what reason ever. Maybe a customer was fond of the blurred design.”

 

I don’t know.

 

It just looks cast iron to me with several discrepancies and inconsistencies (and I am probably wrong).

 

I have included a picture of that tsuba with the discrepancies outlined in blue.

 

Notice the cutouts on the railing of the bridge are of different sizes and shapes.

 

The handles of some of the buckets are of different sizes.

 

The cutouts of the waterwheel are of different sizes and shapes.

 

It just looks to me like this thing was made by pouring cast iron into a mold.

 

If you look at the same motif tsuba included in the other pictures on my previous post (which I believe are hand forged and hand cut), you won’t find those discrepancies.

 

Anyway, I don’t know.  This is just my best guess!

 

 

[Dereks]

There’s no indication that this is a cast — it’s simply low in quality, that’s all.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Derek!

 

So I believe what you are saying is that this is a low quality tsuba and those discrepancies I noted and outlined in blue in my previous post were hand cut on a hand forged tsuba?

 

Well, I appreciate your opinion.

[Brian]

This is not cast, and your "discrepancies" are nothing to do with casting. Just looking at it carefully will show there are no signs of casting.

[FlorianB]

As I understand the production of sukashi Tsuba the design was at first crudely holed using chisels while in a red hot condition. Drilling was invented not before the 19th cent.. 
After cooling the plate the holes have had been filed into the final shapes and the plate itself was filed or polished, too. 

 

Thus I think this particular tuba is a rare reference material presenting the intermediate as a final result.

[Hokke]

While I am unfamiliar with the casting of iron, I am familiar with casting in general. On the one hand, I can see Dans point of view. He is skeptical that someone would only partially "finish" this tsuba. So many lines on that tsuba are nice and clean, but the holes are clearly crude. The problem with this idea is that if all the other lines of the tsuba are nice and crisp from the casting method, there is no reason why the holes he referenced wouldn't also be nice and clean. One would have to assume that the original mold would have to be poorly cut in order to produce a poor casting. So then the question would be, why would a craftsman go to the trouble of producing such clean lines in some parts of the mold and not others? 

 

It seems reasonable to me that what we have here is a an "unfinished" tsuba. Not unfinished as in incomplete, but unfinished with respect to the level of the finishing process. This could have been for a variety of reasons like cost, time, customer request or injury. 

[ROKUJURO]

3 hours ago, Hokke said:

...... One would have to assume that the original mold would have to be poorly cut in order to produce a poor casting....

 

It seems reasonable to me that what we have here is a an "unfinished" tsuba. Not unfinished as in incomplete, but unfinished with respect to the level of the finishing process..... 

Molds were not cut as it is possible nowadays in die casting.  In former times (and in Japan) you needed a model first which was then copied in a mold made from a mixture of clay and fine sand.

In a different casting process, a 'positive' wax model was made that remained in a mold. It evaporated as soon as the molten metal was poured into the mold. 

BELOW: Is this an unfinished painting then?

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Hokke.

 

I agree with you that this tsuba is unfinished.

 

I quote part of your post-

“It seems reasonable to me that what we have here is a an "unfinished" tsuba. Not unfinished as in incomplete, but unfinished with respect to the level of the finishing process. This could have been for a variety of reasons like cost, time, customer request or injury.”

 

Although it is my opinion that this is an unfinished cast iron tsuba.  Even though there are nice and crisp areas of the cast tsuba that have been filed down, the other areas were not filed or finished.

 

I posted this on Sunday at 12:17 pm (it is on page 19) and is from a dealer in Japan-

“When the seam mark was filed off, it is a little difficult to figure out the trick of cast iron tsuba.”

 

For perhaps some of the reasons you mentioned above, the cast iron tsuba was never fully finished.

 

Of course, this is all just my best guess.  I don’t think we will ever know for sure if that is a cast iron tsuba or hand forged tsuba.

 

And since you stated in your post that you are unfamiliar with the casting of iron, I found a youtube website that explains how cast iron Japanese kettles are molded and made in the traditional way.  It is interesting and is listed below (there are many more videos and websites about this but I just included one)-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrJC8D3eEs

 

[Hokke]

7 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Molds were not cut as it is possible nowadays in die casting.  In former times (and in Japan) you needed a model first which was then copied in a mold made from a mixture of clay and fine sand.

In a different casting process, a 'positive' wax model was made that remained in a mold. It evaporated as soon as the molten metal was poured into the mold. 

BELOW: Is this an unfinished painting then?

 

That was a fine statement, if a bit ambiguous to the question of why the pierced portions of the tsuba lack detail. How exactly did we move to paintings exactly? If you question to me was actual, my answer is I dont have the first damn clue, I was unaware paintings were cast. Otherwise you are talking about a completely different genre of artwork. 

[ROKUJURO]

Calabrese,

of course the ZEN painting is not related to casting techniques!

I just referred to the idea of "unfinished". This is possibly only a different concept in our Western brains and does not necessarily correspond to Japanese aesthetics in arts.

Leaving things out can make room for thoughts and emotions, while we in the West fill in every corner of an art-work so there remains no space for your own interpretation and imagination (very generally speaking).

It is just a different way of seeing and feeling(s), I think.

In addition to that, I find it very unreasonable to believe that an 'unfinished' TSUBA was sold/released from a workshop, with clear signs of hammer-work on the SEPPA-DAI (which is a proof that it is not cast!), with mounted SEKI-GANE as a proof of use, would be embellished with a silver FUKURIN. 

This part of the whole discussion is redundant in my opinion.
 

[Dan tsuba]

Rokujuro,

 

You stated in part of your post that-

 

“In addition to that, I find it very unreasonable to believe that an 'unfinished' TSUBA was sold/released from a workshop, with clear signs of hammer-work on the SEPPA-DAI (which is a proof that it is not cast!),”

 

Well, what you see as hammer marks on the SEPPA-DIA I see as casting flaws created by sand casting.  So, your proof that it is not cast may be incorrect.

 

Just a difference of opinions.

 

The only way to know for sure would be to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing, otherwise everything is just everybody’s best guess.

[OceanoNox]

5 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

I just referred to the idea of "unfinished". This is possibly only an idea in our Western brains and does not necessarily correspond to Japanese aesthetics in arts.

I agree: In "Japanese aesthetics and culture: A reader" edited by Nancy G. Hume (recommended a long time ago on one forum by the late Ford Hallam), there are indeed clear quotes about the evolution of the wabi aesthetics praising the partially bloomed flower bud, the moon hidden behind clouds, etc. There is quote from the Tsurezuregusa stating "Even when building the imperial palace, they always leave one place unfinished".

I don't see how not perfectly filed decorations is any indicator of casting whatsoever (If I showed some of my early sukashi tsuba, some might think I knew how to cast iron...). It might be on purpose, it might be a skill or equipment issue. 

[Hokke]

6 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

......Leaving things out can make room for thoughts and emotions, while we in the West fill in every corner of an art-work so there remains no space for your own interpretation and imagination (very generally speaking).

It is just a different way of seeing and feeling(s), I think.

 

Ok, fair enough, I understand your position on this piece. That said, the one issue I have is that your explanation is only of utility when it "has" to be. If ALL tsuba were made in this way, where detail was purposely left out, then it would be a non-conversation. But I dont see that, not even for a specific time period or production house. So the idea that ANYTIME you see work like this, the explanation MUST be "room for thoughts and emotion", I find that dubious. Please understand I am not saying you are wrong, your explanation is certainly plausible, what i am saying is that your hypothesis is no more "right" than mine, because at the end of the day neither of us were there at the time it was produced. 

 

Some time ago I had a customer who presented me with a ring where the inside was devoid of any finishing work. Course file marks were obvious but only if you looked in the ring, otherwise they could not be seen when the ring was worn. I asked the customer if she had noticed these, to which she replied she had. She went on to say that when she brought it to the attention of the jeweler he simply referred to them as "jeweler marks". This tsuba is of particular note to me for that reason. There seems to exist a fine line between purpose and excuse. 

[Dereks]

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Well, what you see as hammer marks on the SEPPA-DIA I see as casting flaws created by sand casting.  So, your proof that it is not cast may be incorrect.

 

 

You see casting flaws created by sand casting..Seriously? 

[Brian]

Just go with it....the usual throwing out some wild theory and then saying "prove it isn't"
 

[Dan tsuba]

 

Yes Derek, seriously.

 

Let’s review.  I have included the picture of what I believe to be a cast iron tsuba.

 

I have also included a picture of a hand forged tsuba with the same motif as the cast iron tsuba (Florian in one of his posts stated it was of poor quality - to me that tsuba appears that it was corroded and maybe a little overcleaned).

 

Now, let us compare the two.

 

The (what I believe to be) a cast iron tsuba shows many tiny pits on the seppa-dai and other places (which I circled in red).  You don’t see that same pitting on the hand forged tsuba.

 

I believe those small pits are caused by sand casting.

 

Also, you notice no good or deep tagane-ato punch marks around the nakago-ana of the cast tsuba.  That is because if those tagane-ato punch marks were put into the cast iron tsuba (as they are put into the hand forged tsuba) the cast iron tsuba would crack and break.

 

Also notice the area of the water wheel (circled in blue).

 

On the cast iron tsuba the water wheel area (in some places) is not flat.  That is because that tsuba was cast.

 

On the hand forged tsuba that area is flat because the entire tsuba was hand hammered flat before carving in the details.

 

Just my opinions.  And of course I could be completely wrong.  But I have described what I see.  Others have their own opinions (and I am certain that they will tell me!).

 

Addendum-

If both these tsuba came up for sale (at $150 U.S. or under, which is my limit of spending) I would purchase the tsuba shown in the second picture (the one that there is no question that it is hand forged).

 

 

[Brian]

Yeah, you are completely wrong. It's very obvious.
Also, you need to learn the difference between hammer marks and "casting pits" which are not present on this tsuba. You also seem to think that designs of tsuba weren't spread across multiple traditions, schools and eras. How are you going to compare a tsuba with a completely different one, like they are supposed to be the same?
You also don't seem to know much about tagane and semigane. 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Brian,

Once again you are great at belittling, berating, and ridiculing.

Let’s see what others have to say about the comparison of those tsuba

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, Hokke said:

....So the idea that ANYTIME you see work like this, the explanation MUST be "room for thoughts and emotion", I find that dubious.....

.....There seems to exist a fine line between purpose and excuse. 

Calabrese,

did I say the WABI concept has to be applied always without exception? I hope not. But there are many examples. See the YATSU HASHI below. 

https://tsubashi.com/product/yatsuhashi-bridge-with-irises-tsuba/

We could possibly discuss without result if there is an unfinished bridge depicted or just the idea of one.

You can also read about René Magritte (Ceci n'est pas une pipe  https://www.planet-schule.de/mm/nie-wieder-keine-ahnung/malerei/epochen/surrealismus  ). Even detailed "finished" works of art may just give you an idea, an imagination of the real thing!

Only bad work and laziness would need an excuse.

[OceanoNox]

4 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

On the cast iron tsuba the water wheel area (in some places) is not flat.  That is because that tsuba was cast.

Dan, the first photo in the original topic about that tsuba shows that area is flat. 

Why would a non-flat area be indicative of casting? 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi OceanoNox,

Well, as can be seen in the pictures on one of my previous posts that area of the water wheel is not completely flat. 

Why would a hand forged tsuba not be flat in that area as all the other hand forged tsuba with that motif shown in a previous post are flat?  That was another indicator to me that the tsuba could be of cast iron.

Anyway, still trying to recover from our Administrator's previous post belittling me.

I am not as fast to recover from those insults as I used to be!

It is easy for people to state insults.

And it is easy to state opinions, but much more difficult to back those opinions up with pictures, references, or weblinks.  Only a very few contributors to this thread have ever stated their references and or shown pictures and or weblinks to information.

Anyway, personally, for today I have had enough of this forum!

[OceanoNox]

14 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Well, as can be seen in the pictures on one of my previous posts that area of the water wheel is not completely flat. 

Why would a hand forged tsuba not be flat in that area as all the other hand forged tsuba with that motif shown in a previous post are flat?  That was another indicator to me that the tsuba could be of cast iron.

The original picture shows roughness, which is very easily attributed to rough forging, rather than casting.

If anything, casting a liquid metal might leave a flatter surface, albeit with maybe a sand-like appearance.

 

But, I may have mentioned this somewhere in the 20 pages here, and I am certainly not the only one: we cannot judge if a tsuba is cast iron from photos alone. 

[Dan tsuba]

OcenaoNox,

 

Once again, your opinions are not corroborated with references, pictures, or web links (just like so many others’ opinions on this thread).

 

When even the Administrator of this forum does not appear to have the scholastic background to state his negative belittling, berating, and ridiculing in a more articulate manner and in a positive way which would be more productive (by including references or pictures) then I figure this thread has reached its end.

 

Then there are what I believe to be dealers that support the Administrator. and anyone that states anything positive about cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period will be ridiculed.

 

Just my opinion based on my past experience with this thread.

 

I am out of here, since there seems to be nothing positive that is occurring and the closed minds, limited thinkers, and those that consider themselves gate keepers of the status quo thinking of how tsuba were made in the Edo period won’t let any new ideas take hold or continue on the forum, even though an abundance of evidence has been shown (with stated references, pictures, and web links) by some contributors to this thread of the possibility that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

For some reason there seems to be many individuals that feel threatened by new ideas. 

 

Perhaps those individuals don’t want to subject every tsuba they sell to the expense of non-invasive metallurgical testing to guarantee to the buyer that the tsuba they are selling is hand forged and not cast iron?

 

My goal was always to present possible alternative ways that tsuba could have been made in the Edo period, specifically (sand cast or clay cast) cast iron tsuba.  My goal was never to purposely upset people or cause conflict.

 

Why several people are so defensive against the possibility that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period is anybody’s guess.

 

Goodbye, for now.

 

 

[Curran]

okay then!

Having to delete a post or two. I'm going to leave Dan's last one up.

I don't really agree with him, but do feel he is entitled to his opinion and I shouldn't edit the thread very much.

 

It has not my favorite thread, as I find the topic very subjective over the last 25+ years.

Please keep the disagreements civil as possible.

 

 

 

[Scogg]

Dan, I think the main issue is that we're all going in circles. As Curran mentioned, some people have been involved in this hobby for decades. So while you say people aren’t open to new ideas, this particular idea really isn’t new at all.
 

I also don’t think it’s fair or helpful to accuse Tsuba sellers of being part of some kind of casting conspiracy.
 

The kind of reference you're hoping for simply doesn’t exist. You can’t reliably date a Tsuba just by looking at pictures. If I post an example of hand forging, you might point to any small flaw and say it’s proof of casting. If you post an example that does show casting, we can’t date it with certainty. So after 20 pages of discussion, where does that leave us?

 

I’m not sure where I’m going with this. You're clearly committed to your search, and maybe there are ways to gather real data to support your ideas. But I doubt you’ll find that information hiding online; it would probably take actual hands-on research and analysis like others have mentioned.

 

Even though I’ve had my share of frustrations with this topic, I do admire your passion...

-Sam