Tsuba casting molds ?

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Paris, for your assistance!

 

But, as I have found out during the course of this thread, just because a seller labels something as Edo doesn’t mean that it was actually made during that period of Japanese history.

 

The tsuba you pictured does appear to be made from cast iron, although I am not sure that it is an Edo period tsuba (although it could be!).

 

Now, finding a cast iron tsuba that has been certified as being made in the Edo period by the NBTHK would be nice.

 

I think I have actually found a few of those and posted them on this thread quite a while ago.

 

I am still searching for any, off and on!

[Dan tsuba]

So, thanks to Paris for getting me out there and looking at papered tsuba (that could be made from cast iron and are certified by the NBTHK as Edo period).

 

Found this tsuba pictured below (with papers).

 

NBTHK certified it (as Hozon), and stated it was made in the Edo period.

 

The surface texture of this tsuba looks to be that it was sand cast.  Also, look at the casting flaws and some unfinished edges.

 

And notice the typical bottle type designed nakago-ana found on a majority of cast iron pieces.

 

Part of the description given by the dealer was (who is in Japan)-

 

“This Tsuba is recognized by The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords, which is known as NBTHK. According to the certificate, this Tsuba is categorized as Akasaka Tsuba (赤坂鍔), which is attributed to Akasaka school makers.”

 

 

Of course, me thinknig it is made from cast iron is just my opinion!

[ZH1980]

Dan - as a new member to this forum, I have greatly appreciated your detailed guidance on spotting “fake tsuba,” as well as your general orientation to more accessible collecting, which promotes and expands this hobby; all great IMHO!

 

With this said, your continued argument for your thesis seems unreasonably dismissive of your colleagues’ thoughtful points. I’ll add an additional perspective, which, admittedly, has been stated in other ways in this thread. From a social science perspective, if cast iron tsuba were made with any degree of prevalence during the Edo Period, we would certainly expect to see clear and regular reference to cast iron tsuba in period specific text, directives, and even law. There seems to be a striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence. 

Others have pointed out the dangers of confirmation bias in these types of examinations, but I think it’s important to restate how much such bias hinders the pursuit of truth. 
 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Zachary H.,

 

Beautifully written and well stated!

 

As you stated “if cast iron tsuba were made with any degree of prevalence during the Edo Period, we would certainly expect to see clear and regular reference to cast iron tsuba in period specific text, directives, and even law. There seems to be a striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence.”

 

There seems to be a “striking lack of that literary and documentary evidence” because (as has been stated before on this thread) in the old days of Japanese history many things were communicated by oral tradition only.

 

And let us not forget that to possibly acknowledge that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period, would greatly tip the scales of tsuba collecting knowledge.

 

I will continue in my endeavors to try to show that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period.

 

It is not only educational for me, but it is fun!

 

I thank you for your knowledge and opinions.

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[ZH1980]

Good point regarding oral tradition, though the Edo Period was notable for the transition away from oral traditions, with the Tokogawa Shogunate being known for its highly bureaucratic nature and reliance on written rulemaking for purposes of social order, etc. Additionally, adult literacy rates spiked to 40-50% in Japan (with, of course, higher rates being seen in urban areas) during this period, which is a clear indicator pointing to the importance of the written word.
 

I don’t think you should discount what appears to be nearly an absolute absence of literary evidence supporting your thesis. Japan during the Edo Period was significantly more culturally advanced than prior and other societies that relied on highly mailable oral tradition. 

[Dan tsuba]

Again, my friend Zachary.

 

Your knowledge and education shines through!

 

I may not be as educated as you (obviously, because of your brilliant posts!), but I am certain that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

My goal is to one day prove that.

 

It all comes down to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

 

Even Dr. Lissenden, stated that many Namban tsuba may be cast.

 

And he stated that in his thesis for a master’s degree in 2002.

 

Unfortunately, he is now deceased (which is a total bummer!).

 

I will not let this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period thing go.

 

Although many members may consider me totally wrong!

 

I have battled many negative posts on this thread.

 

But hey, my friend, it is all just part of me being stubborn.

 

I don’t care how many thorns get stuck in people’s backsides!

 

Again,

 

Thank you for your opinions, and keep those posts coming!

 

And with respect,

Dan

 

 

[Guest When Necessary]

Real interesting idea Dan!

 

I found this in an Japanese auction and I'd bet money it's sandcasted (but not the 138 bucks they want!)

[Spartancrest]

    compare it to this one from:  The Token Society of GB - Scotland Branch.December 3, 2021

 

 

   Cast one is missing some fine elements and has lots of small bubbles in the metal- pretty poor work.

 

What I find interesting is both these tsuba show the ura view - almost like the owner doesn't know the correct orientation of either?

[DoTanuki yokai]

 

You can also make forged metal look like it has a sand casted surface and proves nothing for me. 
 

11 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

My goal is to one day prove that.

 

I think this is the main problem here. 
And your breaking test on a sand casted pan is really not very meaningful because of the fact that modern sand casting is an scientifically advanced process and the alloys and their properties are selected for the area of application and have not much in common with the traditional methods. 
 

[Dan tsuba]

Christian,

 

You stated in your last post that –

 

“You can also make forged metal look like it has a sand casted surface and proves nothing for me.”

 

So, are you saying that there are Edo period hand forged tsuba that have been made to appear as if they were sand cast cast-iron?  If so, I would like to see some pictures of those tsuba!

 

And, amazing how some items in my previous post are just overlooked!

 

I refer you to this statement in my previous post-

 

“It all comes down to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

Even Dr. Lissenden, stated that many Namban tsuba may be cast.

And he stated that in his thesis for a master’s degree in 2002.”

 

If you read Dr. Lissenden’s excellent thesis, you will find out that he stated that he thought non-invasive means of testing was the only way to ascertain if a tsuba is made from cast iron or is hand forged.

 

He also describes various casting methods used in early Japan.

 

Dr. Lissenden’s thesis has been referred to several times in this thread.

 

It can be found here (with its 11 pages of references – Bibliography)-

 

http://etheses.dur.a...4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

Happy reading!

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, I am “signing off” of this thread for a while.

 

According to many members during the course of this thread, there were no cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period.

 

So that would mean that all cast iron tsuba made in Japan started to be made the day after the Edo period until the present time.

 

Right!  That makes no sense to me at all and is totally unbelievable.

 

Some members are ignoring the innate ingenuity of the Japanese kettle makers, the ability of the Japanese to identify a profitable business venture, and the cast-iron sand-casting abilities of master kettle makers that may go back several generations (a current kettle maker in Japan goes back 16 generations!).

 

Some members state that there has been no evidence shown of cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period.  Have they even read this thread in its entirety?

 

This thread has taken the dedicated effort of several members over the last (about) 2 years and 10 months.

 

Those dedicated members have backed up their posts with stated references and pictures.

 

It is not just about opinions, as several members over the years just seem to only state opinions but conveniently overlook to state their references.

 

Either you believe (as I do) that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period, or you are just flat-earthers (non-believers).

 

Wait until a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test for cast iron is developed. 

 

We will see then who is right and who is wrong.

 

Until then, we can just keep arguing about this thing until hell freezes over!

 

Once again (as in the past), I think I will take a break from this thread for a while.

 

Don’t all cheer!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

[Spartancrest]

14 hours ago, KungFooey said:

I found this in an Japanese auction

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226287832244    I like the description: High quality Japanese Sword Guard Phoenix From Japan EDO

Unsigned Beautiful collector's item. [Really?] Antique Original, Age 1850-1899 [Really really!] 

 

I am always a bit suspicious of the slotted sekigane look and the lack of tagane-ato [not even cast in] and you have to wonder where that dimple at the base of the birds neck came from if it wasn't a casting fault. JMHO

[DoTanuki yokai]

On 11/8/2024 at 8:09 PM, Dan tsuba said:

 

 

The surface texture of this tsuba looks to be that it was sand cast.  Also, look at the casting flaws and some unfinished edges.

 

And notice the typical bottle type designed nakago-ana found on a majority of cast iron pieces.

 

I was mainly talking about this Tsuba that I think isn’t cast. 
I don’t see any clear evidence for casting and think that some parts are just naturally corroded over time.

There are many ways to create the iron patina and some may leave a surface that could me misinterpreted as looking casted.
 

I have read the part about casting from Dr. Lissenden. 
So the idea is that making it the „traditional“ way was too Labour intense, but I think that was very cheap. 
How much more charcoal and people would be needed to get the iron to melting temperature that generates additional expenses. 
 

So I cannot really say what would be the cheaper way of making them. 
 

At some point I stopped following the thread and just want to say something because the NBTHK papered Tsuba looks not cast for me. 
 

http://www.ksky.ne.j...umie99/episodes.html

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

The KSKY text is nonsense; it is a 'normal' hand-made TSUBA I believe.

[DoTanuki yokai]

But why would soft steel or iron break like this ? 
I would think it would take some bent first but the piece on the picture looks like a good fake if it is one ? 
I know that they have their „own“ views at Usagiya sometimes.

[ROKUJURO]

This is a TOKEI TSUBA. They are much easier to forge and file than to make a mold and cast an iron copy that would then have to be worked over to make it look better. Casting iron is very different from casting soft metals, and in addition to that, there is no sense in producing TSUBA that weren't useful for combat.

In the picture we can see that a tiny bit was broken off. There is not enough material length to bend, so iron or steel will simply break under these conditions. 

USAGIYA are certainly competent in their own field, but this is metallurgy. 

[ROKUJURO]

Ah, he is still there, peeping behind the curtain! 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Well, I am back on this thread.  Why?  Because I have come across too much new good information on cast iron tsuba.  If I don’t post it now, I will forget about it!  Heck, I even forget where I sometimes leave my walking cane (that’s what happens when you’re old!).

 

So, included are pictures (picture 1 and 2) that are of newly made cast iron tsuba cast by the lost wax method. 

 

Notice the amazing amount of detail that can be achieved with that method!

 

As stated by the dealer, which can be found at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1149602781

 

“I am selling an iron Japanese sword tsuba.

This product is from a workshop specializing in Japanese swords for Iaido in Seki City, Gifu Prefecture.

It will be a contemporary work.

The material is iron, and it is made using the lost wax method.

They are produced by casting using wax molds (commonly known as precision casting).”

 

Also, Dr. Lissenden in his master’s thesis on Namban tsuba describes the lost form (wax) method (found on p. 130) that may have been used in making Namban type tsuba.  His thesis can be found at this link-

 

https://etheses.dur....4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

So, moving on,

Pictures number 3.4.5, 6 and 7 show an NBTHK papered tsuba that could very possibly have been made from cast iron.

 

That tsuba was for sale at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/m1160847457

 

Notice the unfiled casting flanges in some of the openings of the tsuba. 

Also notice small casting flaws that can be seen, if you look carefully.

And notice that the nakago-ana is bottle shaped.

A feature that I have found on many cast iron tsuba.

 

Also shown in pictures 8, 9 and 10 is another similar motif tsuba as the ones shown before.

It can be found at this link-

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1148317429

 

It is an NBTHK papered tsuba, which I think is cast iron.

In these pictures I have circled (also in red) several (what I determine to be) casting flaws.

 

Anyway, just my opinions!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Robert S]

Dan:

 

One important thing to understand is that lost wax mold making materials and methods have changed significantly in the last century or so, making iron casting (versus other metals) using lost wax much more likely currently that it would have been in the 19th century, or earlier.  I do believe that ultimately testing will show that sand casting was being used to produce some edo period tsuba - probably for the lower end of the market.  We know it was being used to produce other iron objects, so I'd be extremely surprised if it wasn't being done for tsuba. Oh for a time machine to go back to a "tsuba store" / sword seller in 1780!

 

But at the end of the day, I don't find the question as significant as many here.  If the casting and post casting clean-up and finishing has been so well done that you can't tell for sure whether it was cast, that's serious craft in its own right, trust me!  I just enjoy the objects on their merits... but I'm not a collector in the serious sense of the word - I'm just a dilettante who knows what he likes, as I proved with the recent piece I posted here... :-)

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Robert!

 

I understand what you stated in your previous post.

 

However, the question of whether or not an iron tsuba is cast or hand forged is an important aspect of the piece to many collectors (at least I think so!).

 

That is because it all comes down to the dollar bill in today’s tsuba market (my opinion).

 

A buyer may want to purchase a rather expensive tsuba that he believes is hand forged.

 

But what happens if he ever finds out that the expensive tsuba he purchased is actually cast iron (one day when a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test is developed to discern the difference between hand forged and cast iron – kind of a do it yourself at your home test!)

 

That is why I keep posting on this thread.  To try and show members that some Edo period tsuba may have been cast, and not hand forged.

 

Maybe looking at a tsuba for specific signs of possible casting (as I and others have shown pictures of possible cast iron Edo period tsuba on this thread) will help tsuba collectors question whether the piece is hand forged or possibly cast.

 

Onward!

 

[Spartancrest]

It is not my imagination is it, that the under board of the "drying rack" is thicker/wider for the last segments on all the abalone drying racks?

Cast or hand forged this is poor workmanship IMHO.

[Dan tsuba]

Here is something neat from the internet. 

 

It explains and shows pictures of a lot of cast-iron sand-casting defects!

 

Have you seen some of these defects on tsuba that you have? 

 

I know that I have seen some of those cast iron defects on one or two (or three!) of my (about) 150  tsuba!

 

Below is the weblink-

 

https://vietnamcasti...and-casting-defects/

 

Check out the pictures under Pinholes, Blowholes (see Open holes), Cut and washes, Metal penetration, and Fusion.

 

Especially those Metal penetration and Fusion pictures (pictures attached below).  I think something like that Metal penetration or Fusion (and an Open hole) appears on a papered NBTHK tsuba that I showed in one of my previous posts here (I have included those pictures again below with the NBTHK papers).

 

Interesting pictures and information on that weblink!

 

Onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

Dr. Lissenden’s master’s thesis on Namban tsuba (which has been brought up several times on this thread) is like a university course in itself!

 

Here is the title of that work-

 

“THE NAMBAN GROUP OF Japanese SWORD GUARDS:

A REAPPRAISAL by Dr John Philip Lissenden.

Submitted, in January 2002, for the Master of Arts degree of the University of Durham.”

 

I think it is a must read for collectors!

 

Not only does it examine, explore and explain Namban type tsuba, but it also delves into tsuba casting methods.

 

For those that don’t want to read the entire thesis (199 pages) I recommend only reading pages 131 through 139 since those pages deal with tsuba casting.

 

His thesis can be found at this link-

 

https://etheses.dur....4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

A few quotes from those pages are shown below-

 

The following is from p. 133-

“Can this supposed action by one of the Yagyu craftsmen be viewed rather as a method

of eliminating from a selection of tsuba those that had been moulded instead of forged

and, perhaps, taken as confirmation that the casting of tsuba was acknowledged to exist?”

 

(When ‘lost form’ is used it refers to the ‘lost wax’ method of casting)

From p.134-

“9.3. TH E CASTING OF NAMBAN TSUBA

Theoretically, Namban tsuba are ideally suited to manufacture by the 'lost form'

method of casting. They were largely mass-produced shiiremono, and the

convoluted undercutting and scrollwork that characterise this group are easily

reproducible by such casting techniques. Indeed, to produce such work by a hand-carving

process could be considered technically difficult and economically impractical.”

 

Also, on that same page (p,134)-

“• The surface of a cast guard will give the impression of granularity and porosity,

and 'sand bubbles' may be present. Conversely, the heating and hammering

processes involved during the working of the metal leave a surface that is relatively

smooth and featureless on magnification. Such granularity is most easily seen on

plain, undecorated surfaces, but facets of the chisel-work, where cast, will

demonstrate a similar porous surface.”

 

And from page 137-

“The examination — with a light and with powerful magnification — of a corpus of

Namban tsuba leads one to the surprising conclusion that a very high proportion

of them are the result of a casting process.

In order to confirm this conclusion, a group of 29 arbitrarily selected Namban

tuba was examined and each tsuba was graded according to the presence of four

indicators of casting, as follows:

1. The presence of surface granularity and porosity, with or without 'sand bubbles'.

2. The presence of investment material — a residue of a red, granular nature was

discounted.

3. The presence of 'feathering' in the openwork.

4. A lack of crispness in the incised areas.”

 

(for a possible comparison picture of item #1 explained above I refer the reader to this forum thread-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50495-sand-cast/

and my post of Friday -11/15/24-at 7:17AM)

 

So, again, some interesting stuff on cast iron tsuba!

 

This has been my thing (and a few others) for about 2 years and 10 months.

 

I am not going to let it go until a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test to discern between cast iron and hand forged iron is discovered!

 

Only in that way will the nonbelivers ever acknowledge that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period!

 

Otherwise, it is just a best guess by those that still say that cast iron tsuba were not made in the Edo period (even though it has been shown that the NBTHK has papered cast iron tsuba - please refer to my previous post above).

 

Onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, I was just thinking again (I know many of you may be saying “oh no, he wasn’t thinking again!”  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!).

 

In my post to this thread on page 12 dated June 27, 2023, I inquired from an antique dealer in Japan about their opinion on cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period.

 

And the dealer’s reply was-

 

“Yes, I agree with your opinion.

All the cast iron tsuba look from Edo period for my eye.

cast iron”

 

So, I decided to ask another seller in Japan, who is also an antique dealer, a question about cast iron tsuba.  My question is stated below-

 

“I have a question I would like to ask you.

What is your opinion that cast iron kettle makers in Japan also made cast iron tsuba in the Edo period?

I think I have a couple of Edo period tsuba that are cast from cast iron.”

 

Now, there is really no reason to state who this antique dealer is.  I will say that they have been on eBay and doing business since 2003 and they have sold about 73 thousand items with a 99.4% positive feedback rating.

 

This is the antique dealer over the years that I purchased my daisho from, 3 other antique blades, some tsuba, a jingasa, and two yari.

 

So, my opinion is that they are a reputable dealer.

 

There reply was-

 

“About Tsuba.

I think they were made by fitting them into shapes when they needed to be produced in large quantities

But I don’t know about iron kettle maker made cast iron Tsuba.

Very difficult judge…”

 

Anyway, just some interesting stuff.

 

It seems that this Japanese antique dealer seems to think that cast iron (“fitting them into shapes”) tsuba were made when they were needed in large quantities (remembering that I asked specifically about the Edo period).

 

Although whether they were made by kettle makers or other craftsmen is “very difficult judge”.

 

Well, at least I am still interested in this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period subject and am trying different ways to find out about it!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi all!

 

Yes, I am still at it (well at least it keeps this old guy busy and off the streets!).

 

So, let me talk about hand forged tsuba (one is papered) and compare them to a papered tsuba that I believe is cast iron.

 

The first tsuba shown is a hand forged tsuba that was completed in 2024.  It is beautiful and shows how the seppa-dai looks on a newly hand forged piece.  More information about this gorgeous tsuba can be found on this forum here-(and pictures are shown below)-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50233-4th-attempt-at-tsuba-making/#comment-522926

 

Then I found a tsuba that was papered.  Now compare that much older hand forged papered tsuba to the new tsuba that I explained above, and you can again see how the seppa-dai on both hand forged tsuba appear similar.

 

Again, pictures are shown below.

 

Finally, I show pictures of a papered tsuba that I believe is cast iron.  The seppa-dai area on that (what I believe to be cast iron) cast iron tsuba appears nothing like the seppa-dai area on the hand forged tsuba.

 

I know that this may be a point of contention for many because probably it will be stated by some that the tsuba craftsman made hand forged tsuba appear differently because of how they treated the surface of the metal with chemicals.

 

That may be so.  But I am of the opinion that those small pitted areas on the seppa-dai (and that actually are all over that tsuba) of the tsuba that I think is cast iron were made by sand casting the tsuba.

 

Hey, just my opinion!

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

I've just started learning but I don't think the last tsuba is cast. Also the texture feels normal to my eyes, happens with patination process and with age! So it's probably an older Tsuba. Second one seems late edo, also lacquered on smooth iron but I may be wrong. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Derek!

 

Thanks for your opinions.  Always appreciated!

 

But, included below are pictures of 2 of my tsuba that I believe are very old.

The seppa-dai on the first old tsuba does not have pitting.

The seppa-dia on the second old tsuba has rust pitting, which looks entirlely different then sand cast pitting on the seppai-dia of the tsuba shown above, which it is my opinion is cast iron (shown in one of my above posts and also shown below).

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[Dereks]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi Derek!

 

Thanks for your opinions.  Always appreciated!

 

But, included below are pictures of 2 of my tsuba that I believe are very old.

The seppa-dai on the first old tsuba does not have pitting.

The seppa-dia on the second old tsuba has rust pitting, which looks entirlely different then sand cast pitting on the seppai-dia of the tsuba shown above (in one of my above posts).

 

Onward!

 

 

 

The papered tsuba in your previous post is in good condition, so it must have been well taken care of and protected. In your last post, first tsuba is in better condition than the second one. Second one is corroded and patina is eaten out.. that's the reason seppa dai looks different. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again Derek!

 

I don’t know.

 

So, what is your opinion?

 

Could cast iron tsuba have been made in the Edo period?

 

I hope you have read the 16 pages of this thread.  Many members contributed to it.

 

Although to read the whole theard may take you a couple of weeks to get through it all (it is long and involved)!

 

Throughout this thread I, and a few others, have tried to back up our opinions with research (and stated our references) or at least have shown pictures of what our opinions are based on.

 

Maybe I am just wasting my time after about 3 years on this thread!

 

I am also a licensed radio amateur.

 

Maybe I should just concentrate on my radio stuff!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

Yes, I read the whole thread, and my answer is: I don’t know. I don’t have access to old books in Japanese libraries, and I don’t know Japanese. I believe that’s where the answer lies—not here.

 

However, from what I’ve read, if I were to make a guess, the Edo period was a time of peace, and they didn’t need to make tsuba in bulk as they did in earlier periods. During the Edo period, tsuba became more like jewelry—something to make one stand out. Additionally, tsuba makers had much more time to practice their craft and come up with new ideas. So, I believe tsuba makers invested their time in quality rather than rushing their work. That was probably the best way to attract new customers. If they had made cast iron tsuba, I’m sure clients would have noticed the difference, and none of them would have wanted to lose customers.

 

So, maybe they did, or maybe they didn’t. And quite honestly, it doesn’t matter much.