Trapdoor Gunto info please?

[Jason the Danish Greek]

I am a Japanese medal and badge collector. But I am not too familiar with the guntos. I thought I'd give one a try. Please help with info. I know the ito is redone and maybe a few things repainted. Not sure if blade is signed yet but I bought for a ridiculous low price well under a grand I hear its a rare one from another separate dealer friend and a collector friend... thought I'd get the best info from yall.  Has both wood and steel blades. I will give more photos soon hopefully but one thing I should mention is anything with a serial number type stamp (the metal pieces when disassembled) all match.  Thanks so much. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Jason the Danish Greek
Extra info I forgot about

[Shamsy]

I'm seeing a great deal that I like and suggests this could be a very nice sword... habaki, tassel, saya spring latch... pretty sure there looks like a nice hamon there too. You've likely done very well, but the nakago needs to be viewed.

[vajo]

Blade looks fake to me.

The rest looks lala. 

[ChrisW]

The metal shows activity but seems a bit lifeless, like a bad acid polish or buffing wheel was rendered unto it. It has that hazy, waxy appearance about it. Or it could just be a really sleepy wartime polish. The silver-plate habaki promises a decent blade.

I'd be interested in seeing the nakago as well.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The Iida lock may be a modern reproduction. The whole thing looks a bit off and assembled post war. 

[Brian]

I think the whole thing was taken apart, "restored" with paint and various bits...I see a cap screw? and then reassembled. Wouldn't surprise me if much/most of it was original, just horribly pained and refinished and rewrapped.

[mecox]

Certainly been refurbished  and some refitted.  But a lot of the parts don't look to fit well.  Certainly repainted saya and tsuba poorly rebound. The silver foil habaki also looks out of place.  Yes waiting to see the nakago.

[robinalexander]

Saw this when it was first posted and thought 'Wow' but quickly turned to 'ohhhh'. But now that a few have chimed in (safety first).... I

 

Ito is wrong

koiguchi relief pattern seems incorrect or painted over...and the screws????

sarute doesn't match in design or age

leather Tsuka cover looks new

Bottom seppa don't seem to fit and don't match top seppa

Saya repainted

Tsuba looks new

If the blade is 'real', what has happened to it?

 

Lida Iida latch looked to be the best part for my money....but I will err with John on that count.

 

I've been wrong before (more than once).... Lida or not and with due respect, I wouldn't buy it on first sight.

Rob 

 

 

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, robinalexander said:

 

 

I've been wrong before (more than once).... Lida or not and with due respect

iida Not Lida

 

 

[John C]

For me, the blade has a "damascus" feel to it, which is not a typical hada. In addition, the shinogi seems too low and very wavy or uneven. And just based on the pics, the blade seems to have a weird curvature or bend in the middle. That in combination with the restoration work would give me pause. Conversely, every time I think a blade is problematic it turns out to be "early" or "late" rather than fake.

John C.

[Tensho]

Way to many red flags when I saw this pop up. For what its worth, I've talked to the seller before. My understanding is he has had "a lot" of parts and is in the process of liquidation. This is why I'd question full swords.

 

Also, this is the nakago. My guess was a Chinese blade fitted to all this. Habaki didn't look like a good fit. 

[Shamsy]

Damn, a frankensword. It looked like it had so much potential, despite some shoddy refurbishment. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It may have been posted on the forum previously but impressive fakes of Iida latches were being sold on yahoo.jp auctions. I'm certain this is one of them, they were very well made but had brand new paint like this and the overall quality was not up to par with the real ones.

 

Please compare this sword with originals:

 

 

 

[lonely panet]

The ito looks horrible. Some of the fittings look horrible, the seppa fit looks horrible. The iida latch looks wonky

 

 

 

 

 

But at first glace it could pass unsuspected at a gunshow and someone would buy it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Jason,

Sorry for all the bad news on this.  If you're not happy, you might ask the seller for a refund.  But it is, at best a 'franken-sword' as we say - bits and pieces thrown together, and at worst, a moderate attempt at a replica.  Photos can play tricks that aren't there in-hand, but it looks like the temper line was made with a grinder, and there are grinder marks on the tsuba.  Although the sakura details are surprisingly accurate if it's a fake.  After comparing the Iida latch to several on Neil's thread, the latch looks like one posted by @Ontario_Archaeology HERE.  It may not be a fake.  In fact, like others already said, all the parts may be WWII legit, but piece-together.  The ito is that course, purple wrapped in one direction, classic of what we see on Chinese work.

 

I was put off by the punched-in artwork on the koiguchi, rather than the raised flower/leaf pattern on the fuchi, but you'll see the same style on the one posted by Matt.  So these may be all Iida company workmanship.  

You'll notice the kanki are the same, although, maybe slightly less precise on yours.  And the crosshatching is more rudimentary on yours.  But that may simply be different craftsmanship from different men at the shop.

 

I don't know.  It's your sword, dude.  But you've got enough from the guys to take it all back if you wish.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Bruce, I'm convinced the whole rig has a good chance of being fake. There are fakers in China buying originals of these rare fittings and making extremely well detailed fakes. So far there have been:

 

• extended patent ishikuze
• special dust seal koiguchi
• Iida latch like above
• removable second hangers

[Jason the Danish Greek]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:21 PM, Tensho said:

Way to many red flags when I saw this pop up. For what its worth, I've talked to the seller before. My understanding is he has had "a lot" of parts and is in the process of liquidation. This is why I'd question full swords.

 

Also, this is the nakago. My guess was a Chinese blade fitted to all this. Habaki didn't look like a good fit. 

Yes this is him. He took way less for it than I even offered at first. I'm returning it. Not worth 600 plus shipping. I offered 900 but then said I couldn't pay. Not sure if it's worth even 6.

Yall can tear apart what he said more if you want. I got a lot of good info thank you. Here is his description: thank you so much btw guys

[Jason the Danish Greek]

His ebay is CASTLE584

I should have known something was up especially when he needed to borrow shipping money from his gf and delayed shipping for 2 weeks. 

He won't return going up have to start a case, destroy his perfect seller history (that's crazy he HAD 100% until now lol)... here is what he said. 

 

I DO NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GETTING YOUR OPINIONS. I HAVE NEVER SPOKEN TO ANYONE ABOUT THIS SWORD. I MENTIONED IN THE DESCRIPTION THAT SOME MODIFICATIONS COULD BE MADE TO IMPROVE THE APPEARANCE. I HAVE BEEN COLLECTING Japanese SWORDS SINCE AT LEAST 1961 AND AM MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAN MOST. I REJECT YOUR CLAIMS. LOU CUTA 

[Jason the Danish Greek]

Here are the button manufacturer on the leather guard. 

And yes the entire blade looks maybe a bad fit. and all the iito and parts are loose when out of the

scabbard maybe he did a poor job reassembling after taking photos.... Please help me with disproving his lies. 

 

[John C]

3 hours ago, Jason the Danish Greek said:

Please help me with disproving

Jason:

Unfortunately, no one here can help you do that. The folks on this site are educated collectors, not an official governing body like the NBTHK or the NTHK. We can give you our opinions based on having researched and discussed swords. But we cannot "testify" to what is true and what is not. None of us saw this sword being built. Unless you find a mark that says "Made in Japan or China" you are kind of stuck if the seller won't work with you. 

But just so you know, we have all been there...some of us more often that we would like to admit. As I have often said in other threads, do not look at this as having been ripped off. You either pay for a decent Japanese sword, or you pay for an education on what NOT to buy. Now you are better educated and you still may have a decent blade...wherever it was made.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I still own the bad fake I bought in the beginning!  At least yours is made of some legit Japanese sword parts.

[IJASWORDS]

Some Iida latch close-ups for reference. Note the internal locking "paul" in the tsuba. I don't see one in Jason's photos. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The seppa aren't correctly cut either: