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Caring for a rusty Katana


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Hi all

 

Japanese sword virgin here..

 

Following on from this post...

I thought I'd see if anyone can recommend some tips on what I would need to do to preserve this blade to prevent any further damage or decay until I am able to get a professional to look at it.

It's a sugata that was given to me when my mum cleared out the garage of dad's old things. Been in the family for over 40 years but know no history and has not bee cared for so is in pretty bad shape.

 

Here's some pics:

 

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Steve, sugata is the shape of the blade. If it's two feet or longer from the notch to the tip, it's a katana. If 1-2 feet, it's a wakizashi. Looks like a katana, from its proportions.

 

My guess is that it's been in salt water for awhile, & the only help you can give it is to cover the cutting area with some oil.

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6 minutes ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

Steve, sugata is the shape of the blade. If it's two feet or longer from the notch to the tip, it's a katana. If 1-2 feet, it's a wakizashi. Looks like a katana, from its proportions.

 

My guess is that it's been in salt water for awhile, & the only help you can give it is to cover the cutting area with some oil.

Thanks Ken. It's approx 32 1/2" overall, about 25" from the habaki(?). 

It's not been in salt water, just stored in a damp garage unfortunately. 

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45 minutes ago, Ken-Hawaii said:

So,  a katana, & quite badly pitted. Too bad, because the sugata is interesting. Looks Muromachi, so at least 400 years old.


I believe it might been even older, Ken. Looks koshi zori to me. :)

 

That's why I advised Steve to keep it until better can be said. If it can be saved, it looks very promising.

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That's the point gentleman.it could be anything at this stage even something not worth spending on.

Best advice smother it in top quality machine oil to allow it to penetrate the rust completely. 

Clean off the excess oil and store blade naked of everything including the habaki (it comes off) in a dry place.

When you have the funds and joined a polishers waiting list,get him to open a window. This should cost about £200.

If he thinks it worth polishing then that's your decision to make.expect IRO £700-1000 to get it done in the UK. He will deduct the cost of the window if you proceed.

Remember it's just a random window it tells you a little but not the whole condition of the blade,and with a blade that you cannot see anything of, you could still end up paying for the polish and the sword comes back with several deep pits,openings or kizu which will make it practically worthless in terms of your cost to this point. The hamon may also run off the sword somewhere. You won't see any of this until it's polished.Then have to get a shirasaya made £300-400 to protect the sword.

Find a Koshirae that fits if you want and is half decent quality £600-700

After the polish unless you get the habaki reworked you will need to have a new habaki made as that blade will be much thinner than it is now.

So the reality is you may spend on a non Japanese polish and shirasaya IRO £1100-1400.

You MAY get back a very nice sword. Worth £2000 (minus your £1400 outlay 

You may NOT get back a sword of any value as although the windows said it's possible to salvage, it's still a huge gamble.

Now there are members who do have this money and would get the work done to TRY to restore it but they would be taking on your gamble.

If you are offered anything like £500 for that little lot personally I think that's your best bet unless of course you're an enthusiast with deep pockets and you like to gamble.

The buyer has the potential to lose £1500 in that sword.

Now if you wish for a quality Japanese polish then your looking at what, a two or three year wait and £3000? £4000?

So truly what sort of money could you gamble on that sadly neglected,time ravaged sword. No offense meant here.

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I think that's a reaction with something put on the blade it's so even. But bare in mind it's been a totally exposed blade & been damp for 40 years and if they lived by the sea or near a factory etc....

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No offence taken. 

If I'd have know what it was when I was younger I would have looked after it.

I guess it could be an expensive process finding out more so it's a case of working out what I can afford to do with it.

For the time being I will look into a window and go from there.

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You have only one UK polisher still working his list is approx 10-12 months.

I have a slot this month as already stated.

If you like, you can put your sword in that slot of mine for a window .If the sword has potential according to Les, I will pay for the full polish on the assumption that you will owe me that cost when you sell.

If it's junk after the full polish ,then I keep the sword as a loss adjustment for my £800-1000.

It's a one off offer now,take it or leave it and I've done it publicly for your protection.

If not I'll send another sword to Les for the slot I have and no worries.

You have my phone number by PM from last conversation.

Regards Adam

 

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Les is not a traditionally trained polisher.
And if it turns out to be a Kamakura tachi, then value would easily cover a full polish with a decent profit left over. I think it is restorable, but the window is to tell if that is true and what activity we see.

Btw @Steve D post a picture of that habaki on it's own in the translation section, there are some who can read that. Let's see what it says.

Don't go for complicated schemes unless you have the option of retaining the sword after if it has possibilities. Get a window first. You do NOT want to find out it is a 1300's nice sword that has a UK polish and then needs to go to Japan for another polish.
Of course it would end up as a mumei average sword..with those fittings you still have $1000+
ONLY thing that would kill it is fatal flaws or it is too badly rusted to polish, and I don't think it is.
Send a few pics of the full sword etc to Darcy at https://yuhindo.com/

Ask what he would do in this situation and what he thinks of the shape.

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Gentlemen,

Before you get too carried away with master plans to send or not send to Japan or whatever can I suggest a good first step might be to let someone with some experience look at it in hand?

Steve if you pm me your contact details I will try and put you in touch with a member of the Token of GB who is closest to you. In hand they can better judge what it is and condition and advise you on the next step.

Regards

Paul

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Gentlemen please note for the record, I retract my offer.

Sorry if I offended anyone .

If the OP Brian cannot afford a polish in the UK then he certainly cannot in Japan.

I looked more closely at the images and in order to recover the kissaki you will lose a huge amount of what already looks a little short from polishing.

If that's a fine Suguba from the Kamakura then your most likely running off the tip.

Try not to build the OP's hopes up for the sake of our own curiousity.

No one will send that to Japan looking like that surely?

 

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1 hour ago, Brian said:

that habaki on it's own in the translation section, there are some who can read that. Let's see what it says.

From the other thread (may be worth closing now?)

 

二龍争玉松間月
Ni ryu tama o arasou sho-kan no tsuki.

 

Meaning is:
The Moon between two pine trees looks like Two dragons fighting for a gem.

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7 hours ago, Steve D said:

 

I thought I'd see if anyone can recommend some tips on what I would need to do to preserve this blade to prevent any further damage or decay

 

To get to the original post:  As rough and pitted as it is, I"m not sure applying oil is a good idea, as you'll never completely be able to wipe it clean.  I'd just do my best to keep it clean and dry.  If you are in a humid climate, and have central A/C and heat, the room that gets the most conditioning would tend to be the driest.

 

Lots of guys use 90% alcohol on blades.  Don't know what effect it would have on this one, though.

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Steve, I take it that it has a handle but not a scabbard - is that true?   Do you live close to the sea or ocean?  I am guessing that you may have salty fog near you and salt will accelerate the pitting process.  It appears that the handle prevented the pitting from occurring on the tang.  

 

The pitting appears to be fairly deep in some places (though this is a important question that requires looking at it in hand).  If a polisher tries to polish it, the deep pits will remain and be visible.  I have seen this several times when friends have sent swords for polishing.  In some cases, even with pits, a sword can be worthy of a polish.  One problem with your sword is that it is not possible to see the steel or the tempered edge pattern.  The purpose of polishing a window would be at least two fold; 1, to see the pattern of temper and steel to assess age and to determine whether it is beautiful or uninspiring, 2, to see if the pits are too deep to be polished away.  The temper and steel would be clues, along with the shape, as to whether it was made in the 1200s, 1300s, 1400s or 1500s.  My impression is that it was made before 1600.  

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Look I got a deal for you.

 

First of all it's a worthless blade. It's BAD. No bueno. I can smell the hagire. I mean - not a small hagire, but like, five, or ten? Maybe more Hagire. Ask Jean, he's had five hagire, blade just like yours. You see, it's not worth it. Second you can't push the dosh in. It's like setting your cash on fire.  So I'm going to help ya out, okay? I help strangers like that, you know. I like to put my money on fire. I'm like that. 

 

I know a polisher in Japan, he's a top guy. I mean really TOP. Big name. He does BIG polishes for BIG people. He's from the Honami clan, he's the real deal. Now, I got a slot with him, you see. One rare slot. It's ten years wait, at least. And you need to know people.  I'll put your blade through my slot. I could sell that slot you see, everyone wants a blade polished by HONAMI. So what I'm sayin' is that I'm making you a BIG favor. Now, if the polisher says it's good, you don't need to repay me for the slot okay? I keep the blade, you get the slot for free. Like a favor. If the blade is bad, you cover my costs, that's all, few hundreds, its CHEAP. You see, you only win. You like to win. I can see it.

 

PS: Jokes aside, shape is promising. It's a good lottery ticket you have here. Go with Paul and get some opinions, and in the end you might want to give it a scratch. 

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Lol! Chris, I withdrew my offer. I wouldn't spend any money on that after careful re-study of the images.

It was a thought to try to help but I can see how it could be interpreted. We judge peoples motives by our own standards and morals. 

No offence but:

What's a token society member going to do though, I mean really, put on x Ray glasses and give and expert opinion on the blades potential? Until a full polish is complete you will know nothing. Everything is guesses and costs. 

Now ask the OP if he can afford to gamble £800 on satisfying the curiosity of numerous board members. 

And that's just for the dreaded UK polisher. 

BTW Les is now the only experienced Togoshi in the UK. 

He did study under Kenji when he lived here. He visits Japan for further training every year at least twice. He attends many Japanese courses to understand more. 

He may not be a Japanese person but even some of those Japanese trained Togoshi I've heard can produce less than desirable workmanship. 

So the worst Togoshi Japan can offer against the best the UK can offer and at a third of the price??? 

Remember the facts. This was neglected for decades not treasured. 

Only now has it come to the attention of someone who has thought " wow what a mess, but I wonder, is it still worth something" 

Now due to poor images and a nice sugata this poor guy thinks this gamble might pay off. 

Steve how much is your curiosity worth in monetary terms? 

What would you be happy to part with to answer the questions others are raising? 

If you loved Japanese swords and regardless of cost just wanted it restored then that's one thing. Happy to lose some money, but know its now once again as it should be. 

But that's not where you are based on our discussion. 

Best thing you can do is pop it into a local auction, let everyone on here know which one and the date of sale. Roll your dice that way and walk away a winner. 

 

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3 hours ago, SAS said:

In my opinion there is no way to make that determination^^^^ without the sword in hand and with experience in polishing rusty damaged swords.

 

 

It is as Steve said. I would take Paul up on his offer of having a Token Society member coming to look at it before you listen to anyone else. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, as it were. It won't cost you a dime that way and you can make a more informed decision. I know that most people would be happy to look at such a case in person if they have the expertise and it were nearby.

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Thanks for all the replies guys.

I'm in the Midlands so not near the sea and not aware of any salt water. There was a scabbard but that fell to bits a few years ago.

I've just another look at the blade and the it looks more like surface rust rather than pitting so, maybe, not as bad as it could be.

I'm only a few days in to trying to understand the blade and get a grip in the different names of all the pieces so there's no rush from me to do anything drastic with the blade. 

My plan is to see if I can get someone Paul recommends to have a look and go from there.

Hopefully it will be good news but we shall see. 

I'll update as I find out more. 

🌲🌑🌲

 

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