Namban Tsuba Or Fake !

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

     Would kindly appreciate your opinions on this tsuba (fortunately it was relatively inexpensive !)

 

     I have read the thesis "The Namban Group of Japanese Sword Guards: a Reappraisal" by Dr. John Philip Lissenden, and it was extremely helpful.

 

     I think it is a Namban tsuba (although it does not fit all the descriptors in the thesis).  It is obviously cast (as many Namban tsuba where) It weighs in at a massive 220.4 grams (which is about 10 grams over the maximum weight of the tsuba listed in the thesis). 

 

    I think it may be Bronze?

 

    It also has the classic Seigaiha Diaper design described in the thesis.

 

    I do not think that it has ever been mounted. 

 

    The characters on the Ura have already been translated (thanks to the kind help of the people on the translation section of this forum).

     "It refers to an act of kindness or mercy that requires decisive, steady action".

 

     Their also seems to be a Mei on the Ura, can anyone recognize it or interpret it ?

 

I have tried to include attachments that I hope are helpful.

 

Thank you all so much for your kind assistance in this undertaking,

 

With respect,

 

Dan

[Geraint]

Dear Dan.

 

I fear the answer to your questions is contained in the tittle of your post, it's a fake.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  What made you  assign this to the Namban group?

 

All the best.

[vajo]

It has nothing to do with a Namban. Its a simple bad made fake tsuba.

[Pete Klein]

I absolutely agree with Geraint and Chris.

[kissakai]

Agreed

One point on Namban is the continuation of the design over the seppa dai

Only ever heard of one signed Namban tsuba

[TETSUGENDO]

Dan, sadly I must agree with the others, you tsuba is a fake.  It has nothing to do with Namban tsuba, I have included a photo of a Namban piece for your reference.

 

-S-

[Curran]

Courtesy of the Middle Kingdom?

[TETSUGENDO]

Many are of that opinion.

 

-S-

[Dan tsuba]

Thank you all so much for your continuing opinions and kind assistance.  Like I stated previously, good thing I got the tsuba for about the price of a good haircut !!

 

Also, I downloaded Dr. Lissenden's thesis on the internet at this website :

 

 http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/4129/1/4129_1648.pdf

 

Does anybody know where I can purchase a hard copy for an inexpensive price ?

 

Keep those opinions coming in !!  Much appreciated.

 

With all due respect,

 

Dan

[TETSUGENDO]

Dan,

 

This appears to be someone's doctoral thesis and is probably only available in this form.  If you wish a "hard" copy for your PERSONAL use, print ONE.  Read the terms use of this material and act accordingly.

 

-S-

[Pete Klein]

http://www.japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/store/books/b837-namban-group-Japanese-sword-guards-reappraisal

 

This is the published version.  It may very well be identical.  

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

     This is not a doctoral thesis, but a thesis written by an individual that already has his Doctorate's degree and is going for another Master's degree.  Wow, talk about an abundance of education !!  If only I could have done something like that.  Oh well, maybe in my next lifetime!!

     Has anybody else read this thesis ??  It is extremely interesting and enlightening in so many ways.  Being new to this exciting hobby of tsuba collecting, it is a "great read".

     Anyway, at $80.00 to purchase a hard copy I think I will just spend the money on ink cartridges and print it out !!

 

With all due respect,

Dan 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

I would really appreciate it if opinions were submitted from "experts" that have actually read the thesis by Dr. Lissenden.

 

Otherwise the opinions submitted are just "uneducated opinions" as far as I am concerned.

 

I know that this may be my last correspondence on this forum if "egos" get in the way.

 

So be it.

 

With all due respect,

 

Dan

[Brian]

I think many of us are well aware of this publication, since John was a member here.
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18662-another-huge-and-sad-loss-to-the-community-dr-j-lissenden/

 

Brian

[vajo]

Thesis or not what has this to do with that tsuba?

 

Btw i have that book: The Namban Group of Japanese Sword Guards: A Reappraisal.

And i have read it.

[TETSUGENDO]

ALL THAT READING......still FAKE.....still NOT NAMBAN!

 

Reverentially,

        -S-

[Fred Geyer]

Dan,

 

I have read the book "and few others" and as a new guy to the tsuba world you need to keep reading, and maybe also look at the dealer web sites that are out there to see real tsuba and see their differences in your tsuba and what real tsuba look like and the details from the different schools. If you like Namban ..so do I.... yet I wonder what you saw in your tsuba to put it to the group of Namban?? No wrong answers here 

 

I what to keep all new collectors to this great study and hobby !

 

Fred          

[Curran]

I appreciated conversations with Dr. Lissenden and regret his passing as one of the more greatly missed on NMB.

I keep his book mostly out of respect and as a reminder of him.

His book has a nice western science light approach to survey of the topic,

           but probably you should get this text if you want a better initial Namban guide:

 

Japanese book: "Nanban tsuba" by Yoshimura Shigeta. Softcover, 6" x 8.25", 108 pages, 1998.

The books shows 96 Nanban Tsuba, 16 in color.

The tsuba are grouped as: I) Chinese and East Asian design motif; II) European design motif; and III) Non-native designs (i.e., fascination with things foreign).

 

There is an English translation in existence somewhere, but I cannot recall where I sourced mine. 

Also please query several of the in-depth discussions of the topic on this board over the last 14 or 15 years.

[Peter Bleed]

Indeed, in 2002 I was THE  outside evaluator on Dr. Lissenden's graduate committee. I came to that august post because his graduate advisor at the University of Durham  was Gina Barnes, who knew me as an archaeologist- and a sword collector. His thesis was part of a MASTER'S program. And I think that Gina probably had John do some very archaeological things in the thesis. All that stuff he did on size/thickness looked to me like the sort of thing that an archeologist of would do to describe some artifacts. Likewise, his typology looks pretty archeological.

I too appreciated conversations with John, He was responsive and insightful. I showed him the piece I published in Man at Arms on Namban copies of European smallsword guards and appreciiated his comments.

And I have to agree that the cast cuprous disk that got this thread started has NOTHING to do with Namban tsubas.

Peter

[Stephen]

Nanban?

 

[Soshin]

I picked from a Japanese dealer a nanban tsuba in a custom box that is very different then anything I have seen before.  Will post in another topic.  The above tsuba is modern Chinese fake and has really nothing to do with Nanban tsuba per say.    

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

     And with all due respect.  I am here on the forum again !!  Excuse me for my "new be" youthful spirit.  I have been taught.  I know now that this is definitely not a nanban type tsuba (originally I thought it was because of the recurring wave pattern theme.  I am still learning and it will take time.  I have bought several reference books and am studying to gain enlightenment  in the tsuba field.  I know I can never "catch up" to the true professionals out there.  I still find the collecting of tsuba a wonderful learning experience !!

 

    Now, many of you have stated that this is a "modern fake".  I now realize that the design of this tsuba is not well executed and is "amateurish".  What puzzles me is this.  Two of the tsuba experts I know and have shown pictures of this tsuba to have stated that they have "learned something from this tsuba".  They have never seen a saying that this tsuba has on it ever been displayed on a tsuba before.  I know that this may be a Chinese fake.  It was probably made about 100 years ago or less for the European market.  But if it is a mass produced fake, can anyone out there show me an exact duplicate of this tsuba ?  Not including Pinterest, a picture I posted of this tsuba already appears there.

 

     Go get em !!

 

With all due respect,

 

Dan

[TETSUGENDO]

Dan,

 

I was reading your post, and just as I was about to reply with an encouraging remark, I got to the second part.  Dan, you must give up this "doubting Thomas" act.  You are ill equipped to question the answers provided you by this forums members, collectively they have invested an enormous amount of time and resources in the pursuit of knowledge.  If you wish to learn here, I respectfully suggest that you rethink your behavior, graciously accept the gifts you receive .......study.....read the posts....books,books....more books.   Save the arguments until you have begun to acquire some real knowledge.  If, instead, you deside to continue on your current course, I fear you could wear out your welcome.  We are a patient and resilient lot, but know when to call it quits.

 

-S-

[parfaitelumiere]

It could be considered as a nanban tsuba, as it's a chinese made for exportation, and if the nanban term could include actual work....joke.
 

[Brian]

Lots of points to make here, but not a lot of time.
Doesn't have to be mass produced. These can be done in small lots, or by amateurs leaking them on the market. 10 or so gets absorbed into the marker fast.
It's all in the details. Look carefully at your close up pics. Japanese tsuba pay particular attention to detail. Lines are perfect and straight, or a nice curve. Look at your seppa dai, is it a nice perfect curve? Rim and nakago ana...nice clean lines?
Look at the nakago ana. What shape sword will fit in there? None. The corners are rounded and nothing would fit properly. No inserts to show it was fitted. Surface is filed flat, but still lots of imperfections.
Everything is rough and amateurish. Look at the crane. Poor carving. No details.
It all adds up.

[raaay]

[TETSUGENDO]

Indeed, "A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse".

 

-S-

[Dan tsuba]

O.K.  I am a total idiot !!  Have been collecting inferior tsuba for awhile now (that is all I can afford).  I think I may have come across an actual Nanban tsuba. Have included pics.  The Nanban is on the left hand side, a copper tsuba is on the right hand side.  Disregard the copper tsuba.  Any opinions ?

 

Always, with respect,

Dan

[ROKUJURO]

Dan,

this is indeed a TSUBA in NANBAN style (thousand monkeys theme), but as you can see by yourself, its execution is quite crude and lacks any details which were probably visible in the original. It is a cast copy with no value for collectors.  

[Curran]

Yagami tsuba  <--and/or->  Namban.

https://art.thewalters.org/detail/21366/tsuba-with-one-hundred-monkeys-2/