Help Needed To Determine Authenticity And Age Of Katana And Tanto Handles

[JoshCattermole99]

Hello and thank you for letting me join this forum. I recently started reading into Japanese history and Samurai culture and wished to purchase an item or two relating to these. I am a student so a complete antique sword is well out of my budget, but I saw for sale online several antique Japanese Katana and Tanto sword handles that were within my budget. I have absolutely zero expertise in this field and was wondering if anybody could tell me whether they were simply aged fakes or genuine antique Samurai artefacts, and, if possible, the approximate age of the artefacts. Thank you very much in advance for any help you can provide.

 

[Greg F]

Hi Josh and welcome. They are real.

 

Greg

[Grey Doffin]

And very nearly worthless.  I wouldn't recommend anyone buy these.

Grey

[PNSSHOGUN]

There is virtually no market beyond parts for items like these. Save your money and buy an original Koshirae instead.

[JoshCattermole99]

Thank you very much guys. I appreciate your comments. Out of curiosity, however, what sort of period would you estimate these were from? 19th century? 18th century? Possibly even 17th century?

 

And another question (apologies if it seems ignorant): were Katanas and Tantos only allowed to be owned and used by members of the Samurai Class? Or could anybody buy one in old times (I.e.-pre c.1880)? Was just curious if these sword parts would have been owned by an actual Samurai. Thanks.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Save your money.

 

You'd be much better off ordering online books on koshirae or fittings from Markus Sesko. 

 

Samurai only were allowed to carry Katana. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

These are most likely from the late Edo period, as most extant fittings are. Alot of work and fitting went into all Japanese fittings, while the market value is low they are still legitimate Samurai relics. However there are so many better and lovely options I would consider researching.

[JoshCattermole99]

Thank you again for your comments and advice. It's much appreciated. What other options would you consider me exploring? Keeping in mind I'm a student with a limited budget, what alternative Samurai relics might I be able to obtain for a reasonable price? I don't plan on becoming a massive Samurai sword collector or anything like that, and I don't mind if something is in really rough shape (for me it adds to the history), so I'm open to any suggestions for alternatives to these handles.

 

Thank you.

[Katsujinken]

Buy books now. They’ll pay for themselves many times over in the education they provide between now and when you do buy actual examples. Visit museums, join a study group or club if you’ve got one nearby.

 

Buy the other stuff later when you have 1) knowledge, and 2) money.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Josh,

I will never argue with someone who says buy books:-)  However, if you have your heart set on owning something Samurai sword, start looking at tsuba.  It is quite easy to find a real tsuba, well and artistically made, with a few hundred years of age to it, in good condition (rough shape is a sign of abuse, not age or history when talking of fittings), in the $100 to $200 price range.  If you choose well, the tsuba will always be worth what you have in it.  Choosing well is the result of study, which brings us back to books, museums, sword shows, and other collector's knowledge & collections.

Grey

[Shugyosha]

Hi Josh,

 

I can give you a couple of options that might draw you further down the rabbit hole. I don't know what you were looking at for the tsuka, but see what you think of this:

 

For £250 I can sell you a mounted koto (warring states period) tanto. The good bits are that it is in polish, signed and dated in an Edo period scabbard and has a tsuba and a kogatana and kodzuka. It has fuchi and kashira in copper and shakudo nanako and menuki with a bow and quiver motif. The bad bit is that the hamon runs off the edge of the blade near the point so it has no real value other than as a nice way to hold together the other bits of the fittings. If you buy it, I'll make a donation to NMB.

 

Alternatively (or in addition), I'd be more than happy to sell you an Edo period tsuba for a donation to NMB of whatever the USD equivalent of £80 is on a given day. I'm treating it as a "catch and release" tsuba as I won it on the last NMB raffle so I'm happy to pass it on if NMB gets something out of it. It is katana sized, iron with pine tree sukashi motif, has a nice patina but someone (not the person who donated it or indeed myself) has pimped the hitsu ana plugs by colouring them in with a gold sharpie. I'll throw in a box for it too.

 

If you go for either of the above, I'll chuck in a couple of general books on Japanese swords and I'll cover UK delivery costs.

 

If you're interested, PM me and I'll try to get you some pictures and further details, but I'm travelling at the moment so it's down to what I have in my head and on my laptop.

 

Kind regards,

John

[Tanto54]

Dear Josh, you should definitely take John up on one of his kind (and generous) offers (otherwise, you wouldn't be a very wise student...)

[Stephen]

John PM sent. Tsuba was my donation..would like a chance to buy it back..sent a pic.

[SteveM]

And in regards to your question as to whether this was owned by a samurai - unfortunately we have no way of knowing. Swords of katana length were restricted to samurai, but it is a rule that seems to have had a lot of lax oversight. In addition, travelers were allowed knives and short swords for protection. Some merchants were granted the right to own swords if they contributed towards certain civic projects. 

 

Don't worry about samurai relics... Japan is full of objects in much better condition than this one. In Japanese antiques parlance, this is what they would call "garakuta" (junk). As an art object and an antiquity, this piece is damaged beyond redemption. Bear in mind the metal fittings may not have been excellent quality to begin with. Hence the harsh valuation. It might be hard to believe that the Japanese antiques world would not attach much value to a two or three-hundred year old item like this, but this is the reality. Follow the advice of the gents above - they know what they are talking about. 

 

 

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1424846364

https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1061046210

[JoshCattermole99]

Wow. All of your comments are interesting and have given me much food for thought. I agree that it is wise to read up with the appropriate books and will look into them. Also, thank you John for your generous offer. I will send you a PM. Thank you so much

[Shugyosha]

Hi Josh,

 

I've PM'd you.

 

Just to let you know, I've offered this tsuba back to Stephen, but if you should decide that you'd rather have a tsuba I can offer something equivalent. 

 

Best,

John

[JoshCattermole99]

An update. I've decided to take up John's extremely generous offer on the Warring States Period Tanto. Thanks so much John, you are an absolute pleasure to do business with and extremely honest too, explaining in great detail exactly what the item is, and all the pros and cons. Thank you.

 

Also, a thank you for all the members who offered their advice. I, admittedly, walked into this with an attitude of purchasing the handles anyway, but after your honest opinions I was drawn in, and now am the proud owner of a genuine Tanto (after receiving and doing more research myself i'll try to upload some pictures and make a post about it). And that will, hopefully, be a gateway purchase into the broader world of Japanese sword collecting.

 

Once again John, thank you so much.

[kissakai]

Great result and I look forward to seeing the images

[ROKUJURO]

Josh,

congratulations! That is a very good decision, I am sure! Welcome to the wonderful and exciting world of NIHON-TO! 

[Brian]

Great decision. At that price, you paid for the mounts and the blade was free. A lot can be enjoyed even with the hamon broken. Hope this is the start of a long and enjoyable journey.

[Surfson]

I second the recommendation of buying books.  Having said that, seek beauty.  There are lots of fairly inexpensive fittings on ebay that are quite old and have significant beauty.  The sooner you think of these as art objects instead of artifacts, the faster you will do well, in my opinion.  These are real but there is little to enjoy artistically.  

[Tanto54]

Dear Josh,

 

Congratulations!  Great decision (so many beginners do not take the sage advice offered here and later learn to regret it).  I second Brian's comments - if you ever tire of this fascinating hobby (obsession....) and I doubt that you will, you could easily get your money back (probably plus some).  However, if you purchased those "handles" (tsuka), you'd probably never be able to get your investment back (or learn anything other than not to make impulsive purchases...).