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Anchor Mon On Rinji (Type 3)


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#1 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:48 AM

Anybody seen anything like this before?!?! It's posted on this website, https://www.warstuff...ff-i1555977.htm
but here's the pics:99355F15FnqpzrGyHHeagU88xQmEGx78jIxdfvy.jpg __99355F35FGpysrjxM0ogXIS8AiZBcI2FvtUOT0D.jpg SmartSelect_20190131-154954_Chrome.jpg
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#2 Ian B3HR2UH

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 04:13 AM

This has always looked suspicious to me. On all of the Japanese " mon " that I have seen the background surface has an ishime effect wheras this one appears to be a smooth surface .There are not too many of these late pattern pieces in Australia but I have never seen one with a mon on it

Ian Brooks.


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Ian Brooks

#3 IJASWORDS

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 04:56 AM

I agree with Ian, with one caveat, mons were some times attached, not as a family lineage, but as a "good luck charm". I have such mons on swords, purely added for luck or blessing. May be the officer had a connection to the sea, but not in the IJN. 


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#4 Mister Gunto

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:06 AM

I've never seen a Mon attached to a late war mounting before. Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, but it's very unusual. 


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#5 Edward S

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:49 PM

Here’s one of mine. Anchor Mon on Kabuto Garne and Tsuba.

For your interest.

Edward S

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#6 vajo

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:00 PM

Special order Kai Gunto? Looks cool.



#7 BANGBANGSAN

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:36 PM

Here’s one of mine. Anchor Mon on Kabuto Garne and Tsuba.

For your interest.

Edward S

Very Cool!


Trystan


#8 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:28 PM

Clears up my concern that it was a post-war Bubba-job!

And what's with the end of the tassel? It seems to be joined in a unique way:SmartSelect_20190207-132544_Chrome.jpg

#9 Dave R

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:07 PM

Clears up my concern that it was a post-war Bubba-job!

And what's with the end of the tassel? It seems to be joined in a unique way:attachicon.gif SmartSelect_20190207-132544_Chrome.jpg

 

 Or a repair to a damaged tassel.


Dave


#10 Ian B3HR2UH

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 03:50 AM

it looks to me like the same  UK  " improver " has been to work on both of these pieces .

Ian Brooks


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#11 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 07:27 AM

Must say it looks suspect.


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#12 Geraint

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:49 AM

Have to agree with Ian on this one, it's always about quality and this type of mon is available on Ebay.  All too easy to add to a sword.

 

All the best.


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#13 lambo35

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 02:14 AM

Another WAG, the Yokosuka Arsenal used the anchor symbol on their late war type 99 rifles [Naval Special]. Could the appearance of the anchor mon on Showato be associated with the Yokosuka naval base/arsenal/administrative complex during ww2?

 

Chuck.


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#14 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:41 AM

Another WAG, the Yokosuka Arsenal used the anchor symbol on their late war type 99 rifles [Naval Special]. Could the appearance of the anchor mon on Showato be associated with the Yokosuka naval base/arsenal/administrative complex during ww2?
 
Chuck.


Do you have a picture of an example? Always open to possibilities! Like the unique emblems on Fuller's "paratrooper" guntos, guys were known to personalize their gunto and it is likely that koshirae makers offered items that might be of interest to like-minded officers wanting to jazz up their purchase.

#15 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 04:42 PM

Hmmmm .... someone just shared with me pictures of, and his experience with, modern reproductions of this very same mon. SO, like all things gunto - one must take each case for it's own merit. It appalls me that so many aspects of our hobby are faked and copied! There seems to be no end to it.

As for the two on this thread, they both seem to have real age, where the repros I saw were shiny new. Yes, age can be faked too, so the call must be made by those in possesson of the item, as always.

To my original question, I had just never seen the mon used at all and wondered if others had. My gut feel is that fakers don't create something new, they copy something original. So, for a fake market to exist, I would tend to think that there were some real anchor mons out there in the first place. Like Fuller's paratrooper/aviator sarute, they must be quite rare, but likely exist or else we wouldn't have replicas.
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#16 lambo35

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 11:41 PM

Bruce, my computer skills do not include the ability to transfer photos from one page to another, however, I have seen the pics of the "Naval Specials" on the Gunboards, "Firearms of the Rising Sun" page.

 

Chuck.

 

PS. I just looked at a couple of my books on Japanese rifles. "Military Rifles Of Japan" by Hunnicutt/Anthony, on pg. 154, 155 has pics of the anchor on the receiver/barrel of the Naval special.


Chuck L.

#17 Ian B3HR2UH

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:37 AM

The UK ebay seller old-Japanese-swords-uk has lots of natty little silver "mon" for sale including an anchor one . If you put one of these on an NCO metal hilter , knock it about a little and let it oxidise , then you will have something unique and very saleable . He even sells menuki type fittings with a swastika on them . Put these on a sword and it would be really worth having !!

Ian brooks


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#18 Edward S

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:02 PM

Oh Dear.....I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest with my Navel Gunto and anchor Mon.

I bought this sword quite a few years ago from another collector. He did not want silly money for this sword so I bought it along with two others. The reason I bought this sword was because of the unusual Mon (I do not claim to be an expert on Naval Swords but I have seen quite a few over the years) In fact I have only ever seen one other example like this before and that was in the shop of Chris James (Warwick)

About 10 years ago I discussed this sword with a well known author of our collecting interest (already mentioned above in another post) who came to the conclusion that it was rare. He never used the word fake.

The sword is stainless steel with the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal Stamp (exact copy of the Mon) and probably made at the Navy Kamakura Tenshozan Workshop, although I am willing to be corrected on that. The Nakago also has the other ‘sometimes seen’ stamp/mark that is still not fully known and translated as ‘That other’.

The saya is shagreen and the fittings are genuine and in good order.

The 3 kanji on the nakago appear to make up the name ‘Inanami’ which I am still unsure of.

The sword knot is indeed a repair (Grey spotted it straight away) at some time in the past, the knot parted and was bound with what looks like silk thread and then lacquered to hold it together.

If you look at the Mon, it is quite different to the one on eBay (see pics) The Mon on my sword is exactly the same as the stamp, i.e. it has a anchor ‘eye’ at the top and not as the example on eBay.

In truth, I do not know whether the Mon were added post war or not and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that this sword is quite genuine and is of interest to collectors.

This is one of those situations where there is no definitive answer. I am happy for people to reach their own conclusions about my sword. It even has a couple of file marks for Bruce to get excited about!

Edward S

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#19 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:20 AM

Edward,

Yes, definitely the Toyokawa Arsenal. Tenshozan had their own stamp, but I honestly don't know enough about them both to know if they worked together.

Can you fill me in on the second stamp you refered to as "the other" stamp? It almost looks like a Ren stamp, but not exactly. Do you have any references to other posts about this one?

I agree your mon look older and original comopared to the new reproductions.

Oh Dear.....I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest with my Navel Gunto and anchor Mon.



The sword is stainless steel with the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal Stamp (exact copy of the Mon) and probably made at the Navy Kamakura Tenshozan Workshop, although I am willing to be corrected on that. The Nakago also has the other ‘sometimes seen’ stamp/mark that is still not fully known and translated as ‘That other’.



If you look at the Mon, it is quite different to the one on eBay (see pics) The Mon on my sword is exactly the same as the stamp, i.e. it has a anchor ‘eye’ at the top and not as the example on eBay.

In truth, I do not know whether the Mon were added post war or not and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that this sword is quite genuine and is of interest to collectors.

This is one of those situations where there is no definitive answer. I am happy for people to reach their own conclusions about my sword. It even has a couple of file marks for Bruce to get excited about!

Edward S

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#20 Shugyosha

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 02:38 PM

I don't know why, but everytime I see this thread title, I see this:

 

Ron Burgundy (2).jpg

 

 


Best regards, John 

Please excuse my spelling mistakes, brevity and ignorance.


#21 george trotter

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 06:18 PM

Just saw this post.

Some years ago I saw what I think is the very same Rinji sword tsuka shown in the OP.. In fact I posted a pic of that kabuto gane with mon under a heading  inquiring about mon on type 3 swords. That looks like the very same tsuka, except to say it is now much 'cleaned'. I posted it as possibly the first evidence of a mon seen on a type 3.

You could probably dig up my original post with 'mon' and 'type 3' and my name, and see if it is the same sword.

That anchor mon is the only one I have seen ever on a type 3 and I can't really say if it is genuine. I can only say that my memory of it then and now seems to say that maybe 'over-cleaning' has made it look "newish - fakish"?

Regards,


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#22 george trotter

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 03:01 PM

I found the post, but the pics won't open. They are on:

"Mon on a Type 3 gunto" by me, 2nd Dec. 2012 post #1, #4.

Be good if Brian could "resurrect" the pics so we can see if they are the same sword...maybe now overcleaned?

Regards,


George Trotter

#23 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 03:57 PM

George,

Thanks for the tip on the old thread! Very interesting!

For those who are following, but aren't likely to go read the old thread, George and others found that the anchor theme was, in fact, listed as an old kamon: (http://www.thejapane.../objects/ikari/)

Called maru ni ken ikari mon.
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#24 Windy

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 06:17 PM

I’ve go the Hawleys mon book, if anyone wants to see the relevant page.
Cheers, Matt

#25 Brian

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 06:28 PM

Those pics seem to have been lost 7 years ago. If someone wants to ask Roy Lindus to send them again, I can edit and add to that post.
He'll still have the pics I bet.


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#26 george trotter

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:49 PM

I found the original sword pic.

It is from a post called "Masakuni Gunto with reisho script" Apr. 11 2013 by Curtis A.

Sure looks like the same sword?...a bit dirtier then?

Mon looks OK to me, but who knows...?

 

Regards,

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#27 Windy

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 05:55 PM

Little mark on top right corner of mon. Looks the same.
Cheers, Matt




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