Jump to content


Photo

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey


  • Please log in to reply
233 replies to this topic

#181 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 13 March 2019 - 06:47 PM

Very sad to hear. Scumbags are an eternal part of our humanity. Just painful to have to deal with them in our day & age and in our fields of study.

I'm going to keep this one in the study, but note the controversy.
  • Ontario_Archaeology likes this

#182 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:21 PM

Sad news from Nick Komiya at Warrelics. I guess since Mantetsu-to are where the money is today in WWII gunto, that is attracting the criminal element:

"Late last year, the association of Nihontoh smiths petitioned the government for subsidies to support and preserve the tradition of Japanese sword -smithing, which otherwise they claimed to be a quickly dying skill in Japan. They warned further that soon there will only be "made in China" Nihontoh.

I did not take their last warning seriously, but if they are making fake Mantetsutoh, China is a likely source and the warning starts to make serious sense.

On the other hand, I did a Google search in Japanese on fake Mantetsu, and discovered that Japanese collectors are also onto the possibility of Mantetsu blades being faked since 2015 or so. A post claimed that the author started to entertain doubts when he noticed two Mantetsus were approved for a permit on the same day in consecutive numbers, striking him as too much of a coincidence and that a sudden surge in Mantetsu supply in the market is observed . His theory is that perhaps already registered Mumei Bizentoh (having similar characteristics to a Mantetsu) blades are getting fake Mantetsu mei added, in this case, in Japan.

Anyway collectors do seem to have good reason to be on alert over Mantetsu blades."
  • vajo, IJASWORDS and Ontario_Archaeology like this

#183 vajo

vajo

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,086 posts
  • LocationGermany / Bavaria

Posted 14 March 2019 - 07:51 PM

So it is very importend to compare hada and hamon with doubtless swords.


  • IJASWORDS and PNSSHOGUN like this

#184 PNSSHOGUN

PNSSHOGUN

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,538 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 15 March 2019 - 03:07 AM

I view any Mantetsu with obvious Hada or non Suguha Hamon to be fake until conclusively proved otherwise.


  • IJASWORDS likes this

John


#185 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 14 April 2019 - 03:10 AM

Thanks to Ontario_Archaeology for this find on a Japanese auction site https://buyee.jp/ite...ogtrans(ja|en). Claims to be carried by a Col Nakagawa on Peleliu; FULL HAMON. It's the second one I've come across recently with wavy hamon, and both are Spring '41's. I've got the inscription posted over on Translation Assistance, so I'll update if significant news comes from it.

As always, I welcome your thoughts. I'm aware Mantetsu made some custom blades, but these wavy hamon blades generate a bunch of suspision about gimei jobs on otherwise unsigned nihonto to drive the sell price up.z09r253wsylpd.jpg sun41xqdtoce8.jpg y4jl9s217a5ov.jpg 2xukyoh13id64.jpg
  • Ontario_Archaeology likes this

#186 PNSSHOGUN

PNSSHOGUN

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,538 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 14 April 2019 - 09:28 AM

Another Gimei from whoever Komonjo sources his listings from.


  • vajo likes this

John


#187 David Flynn

David Flynn

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,259 posts
  • LocationSydney Australia

Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:22 AM

John, you're wrong about the Hada.  I have seen Koa Isshin, with Mokume, Masame and Itame. And they are all genuine.


  • PNSSHOGUN likes this
David




First there is a mountain then there is no mountain, then there is.

#188 vajo

vajo

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,086 posts
  • LocationGermany / Bavaria

Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:38 AM

I was false. I compare the Nakago, the yasurime and the mei with different source. That swords looks like a very well made signed Mantetsu.

I think it is a real Mantetsu sword in perfect restaurated condition.



#189 PNSSHOGUN

PNSSHOGUN

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,538 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 14 April 2019 - 02:26 PM

John, you're wrong about the Hada.  I have seen Koa Isshin, with Mokume, Masame and Itame. And they are all genuine.

Do you have any pictures of those by chance? It would be a welcome change to see authentic ones, especially if they have dates.


John


#190 BANGBANGSAN

BANGBANGSAN

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 182 posts
  • LocationSF Bay Area USA

Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:08 PM


 

Bruce

I found some photos for another Mantetsu had similar signature in style and position,it also papered.It says belongs to General 石原莞爾  Kanji Ishiwara.Seems quite a few these sword with newly registered paper pop up in Japan this year.

I think there are goup of Japanese doing this on Mumei blade ,just try to fool collectors.

Attached Thumbnails

  • 石原莞尔满铁.jpg
  • 石原满铁证书.jpg

Trystan


#191 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 13,665 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:20 PM

Definitely a syndicate doing this regularly. Not sure if they are refinishing and signing mumei swords, or having them made. Either way, I am sure there are investigations ongoing.


- Admin -


#192 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 15 April 2019 - 08:07 PM

John,

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same look. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

Brian,
I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.attachicon.gif191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg


John,

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

Brian,
I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg

#193 BANGBANGSAN

BANGBANGSAN

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 182 posts
  • LocationSF Bay Area USA

Posted 15 April 2019 - 09:14 PM

John,

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

Brian,
I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.attachicon.gif191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg

All these sword wrote 佩刀(Carried by)not very convinced.


Trystan


#194 reeder

reeder

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 487 posts

Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:27 PM

John,

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

Brian,
I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph. 191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg


Those are from polishing...
  • vajo and BANGBANGSAN like this

Brandon

 

Collecting Type 98 & Type 3 Gendaito


#195 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 16 April 2019 - 02:32 PM

Thanks Brandon. I just learned that on a similar discussion on the Translation Assistance thread. They said these "signature" marks by the polisher have been used for centuries. I'm not a nihonto collector, so I haven't come across them before (or noticed them if I did).

I guess the problem is the same, though. Even if the polisher was a current one from today, not WWII, it doesn't prove or disprove, by itself, the age or legitimacy of the blade. If the marks are unique to a particular polisher, I think it adds some building evidence that a particular seller in Japan is turning mumei blades into Mantetsu blades and having them polished by his favorite polisher. They all have the same look, polish, and attribution characteristics.

#196 vajo

vajo

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,086 posts
  • LocationGermany / Bavaria

Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:24 PM

Bruce this blade is very well forged. The signature looks perfect for me. I know that you look for authencity of ww2. But i really think that is a genuine mantetsu sword.



#197 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 13,665 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:10 PM

I don't.


- Admin -


#198 vajo

vajo

    Juyo

  • Members
  • 3,086 posts
  • LocationGermany / Bavaria

Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:23 PM

It looks really not bad but i'm not an expert.

 

buyee_mantetsu.jpg



#199 Brian

Brian

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • 13,665 posts
  • LocationSouth Africa

Posted 16 April 2019 - 08:26 PM

It looks done yesterday


- Admin -


#200 reeder

reeder

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 487 posts

Posted 17 April 2019 - 01:22 AM

These polisher marks are not specific to any polisher. It tells you nothing more than it was polished.

Sword is not correct.

Brandon

 

Collecting Type 98 & Type 3 Gendaito


#201 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 17 April 2019 - 02:40 AM

Bruce this blade is very well forged. The signature looks perfect for me. I know that you look for authencity of ww2. But i really think that is a genuine mantetsu sword.

It looks done yesterday

I'm firmly on the fence (though wavering to fake). The mei and serial numbers are as good as any Mantetsu out there.

New- I first thought "well, the polisher would have cleaned the whole thing, that's why it looks new." I checked my polished Mantetsu, and while he shined the nakago, there is patina still imbeded in the kanji cuts. Soooo, either the one in question was cut recently, and no patina, or the polisher REALLY cleaned the nakago - UNKNOWN.

We have a sample of 2 (maybe 3), but both the current ones looks identical and too new. I'm saving this one like I did the last one - "under suspicion".

I would love to see (assuming fakery) one come out with an identical serial number to an existing one in the database. But, there were approx. 38,000 of these made, with a database of 160, so the odds are in their favor right now.

#202 Bazza

Bazza

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,353 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, Australia

Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:44 AM

It looks done yesterday

... and I think I see "chatter" on the file strokes, i.e., not a trained metal smith??

 

BaZZa.


  • Brian and Bruce Pennington like this

#203 Bazza

Bazza

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,353 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, Australia

Posted 17 April 2019 - 03:02 PM

Bruce, here is more grist for your mill.  The attached photos are titled "Bazza's...jpg", but in fact the sword belongs to a friend of mine who has at last sent me photos of his Mantetsu.  I don't have any other photos so can't comment on condition, but the tang suggests it has had a hard life.  So in essence this is a contribution to your survey.

 

BaZZa.

 

Bazza's Mantetsu nakago omote.jpg    Bazza's Mantetsu nakago ura.jpg    Bazza's Mantetsu nakago mune.jpg



#204 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 17 April 2019 - 03:40 PM

Bruce, here is more grist for your mill.  The attached photos are titled "Bazza's...jpg", but in fact the sword belongs to a friend of mine who has at last sent me photos of his Mantetsu.  I don't have any other photos so can't comment on condition, but the tang suggests it has had a hard life.  So in essence this is a contribution to your survey.
 
BaZZa.


Thanks, great one! It's my first and only "No" serial number! And yes, the nakago looks quite worn! I don't see how a nakago could get so worn under a tsuka. I almost want to think it was previously heavily rusted and has been cleaned, but "cleaned" would look shiny and buffed, where this still looks old and just worn. Interesting one.

#205 16k

16k

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 335 posts
  • LocationFrance, Burgundy

Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:55 PM

Hi Bruce,

As I’m in the process of buying a Mantetsu, I’m looking at many websites for info and stumbled upon this sword:

http://artswords.com...unto_090718.htm

I don’t think it’s in your collection yet, if it is, sorry for the misleading info.
Jean-Pierre, but everybody calls me JP

#206 BANGBANGSAN

BANGBANGSAN

    Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 182 posts
  • LocationSF Bay Area USA

Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:12 AM

Hi Bruce,

As I’m in the process of buying a Mantetsu, I’m looking at many websites for info and stumbled upon this sword:

http://artswords.com...unto_090718.htm

I don’t think it’s in your collection yet, if it is, sorry for the misleading info.

This one is in the data base already.


Trystan


#207 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:15 AM

Thanks JP, I appreciate it! But it is one I have already.

#208 16k

16k

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 335 posts
  • LocationFrance, Burgundy

Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:42 AM

Well, sorry then.
Jean-Pierre, but everybody calls me JP

#209 16k

16k

    Jo Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 335 posts
  • LocationFrance, Burgundy

Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:04 PM

Also found that one. You probably have it too but worth to see if only for the bullet impact.

https://japaneseswor...fuchi-by-bullet
  • Bruce Pennington likes this
Jean-Pierre, but everybody calls me JP

#210 Bruce Pennington

Bruce Pennington

    Sai Jo Saku

  • Members
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:58 PM

Thanks Jean-Pierre, I also have that. I posted it on the Battle Damage thread as well: http://www.militaria... battle damage

I’ve pent a few days scouring the web for these. About the only ones I won’t have is something newly posted somewhere.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq