Thoughts on the Masamune currently up at Aoi Art?

[treverorum]

I was browsing Aoi Art recently and this listing stopped me in my tracks. It’s a Mumei katana attributed to Den Masamune with NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papers. It features a Sayagaki by Hon'ami Choshiki (dated 1884) which Aoi Art seems to rate highly.

 

https://sword-auction.com/en/product/29329/as25618-刀：無名伝-正宗特別保存刀剣委託品/

 

I was surprised to see a piece with this attribution available publicly like this. Has anyone here had a chance to look at the photos in detail? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the blade and the attribution.

[atm]

Although a separate topic (like yours) probably would have been better, it is being discussed here: 

 

 

 

 

[Rawa]

42 milions yen, would it ever pass juyo?

[eternal_newbie]

13 minutes ago, Rawa said:

42 milions yen, would it ever pass juyo?

 

In its current state? Not as a Masamune (remember that it has to be compared to other examples of high level Soshu work and be considered in the upper range, not just in quality but in state of preservation). Not unless there's a particularly special historical significance to this particular sword, which doesn't seem to be the case or it would surely have been documented in the listing to help with the sale. It could potentially pass as a really good example of a lesser smith, in which case the listing price would lose a couple of zeroes, but I suspect the fallout of such a move wouldn't be worth the hassle for the current Juyo committee (or the person trying to sell it at its current price). Much easier for all parties involved to just say "it's old, it's worn, this is as good as it gets for what it is, take it or leave it".

[Hector]

As a novice who nearly got stung recently because of lack of experience, a member here advised that I visit some mid-level dealers as I live in Yokohama. I did just that and have just started to get a feel for what is available, who is most helpful etc. In one shop, I made the acquaintance of an elderly Japanese gentleman who has been collecting for 55 years and who very kindly took me for a cup of coffee to continue our chat. We eventually moved on to who are the best dealers and Aoi Art came up. My new friend said that they are good if you know exactly what you are looking for and can easily spot flaws or swapped-out koshirae. Interestingly, he also added that no collector with extremely high end pieces would commission Aoi to sell them on their behalf. Instead, they would use a network of very serious collectors - predominantly Japanese, occasionally foreign - who always get first pick of 'the best'. 
 

Therefore, from this comment, I would be suspicious of how Aoi suddenly have a Masamune-den piece in which they have not themselves invested a new polish and Juyo submission.

[eternal_newbie]

31 minutes ago, Hector said:

I would be suspicious of how Aoi suddenly have a Masamune-den piece in which they have not themselves invested a new polish and Juyo submission.

 

This being a consignment, my guess is that the consignor is insisting on the price and hoping some wealthy Westerner with money to burn will snag it mainly for the privilege of being able to show off a recently papered Masamune, and Aoi Art is simply one of the best sites for selling to such a market. As many younger/newer collectors will attest, it is typically one of the first dealers one encounters online and uses to learn the ropes, simply due to their constant rate of listing. And to add to that, Masamune is one of the very few smiths who is famed in the West *outside* Nihonto circles due to the presence of his swords in video games, manga and anime.

 

Edit: I say "westerner" but I would be remiss in not mentioning the Chinese and Singaporean markets which also have more than their fair share of whales with deep pockets.

[cookiemonstah47]

I feel as though the condition reflects the price and brokerage. I bought a book from AOI in the past and they were very polite and easy to deal with. If this Masamune was indeed juyo grade it would not be at this price point. I question the need to offer this sword to the general public though. Do we know what generation Masamune this is? 

[Hector]

4 hours ago, eternal_newbie said:

 

"hoping some wealthy Westerner with money to burn will snag it mainly for the privilege of being able to show off a recently papered Masamune, and Aoi Art is simply one of the best sites for selling to such a market."

It's interesting you say that because the old gentleman I was talking to was laughing about a rich foreigner who started spending a lot with Aoi and similar dealers a few years back without any real knowledge of what they were buying. They were treated fairly and honestly but apparently turned nasty when they realised they weren't getting any national treasures they could boast about.

Caveat emptor.

[Lewis B]

12 minutes ago, Hector said:

It's interesting you say that because the old gentleman I was talking to was laughing about a rich foreigner who started spending a lot with Aoi and similar dealers a few years back without any real knowledge of what they were buying. They were treated fairly and honestly but apparently turned nasty when they realised they weren't getting any national treasures they could boast about.

Caveat emptor.

As the saying goes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing

[vajo]

one of the nicest boshi i've seen so far.

 

[Fuuten]

As a request; did anyone save the photo's and auction text as it appeared on Aoi? I had the tab open but left it for too long and its removed. If someone has the files and information I'd be grateful to get a copy. Thanks in advance. 

[Barrett Hiebert]

Fuuten (Axel), 

 

Just send Aoi Art an email and they should be able to send you the link for the page.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

[PNSSHOGUN]

Check the link on wayback, it should be saved. 

[eternal_newbie]

1 hour ago, Fuuten said:

If someone has the files and information I'd be grateful to get a copy. Thanks in advance. 

 

If you can't get it on wayback send me a PM, I did a quick search and found the files in my browser cache.

[Fuuten]

1 hour ago, eternal_newbie said:

If you can't get it on wayback send me a PM, I did a quick search and found the files in my browser cache.

Thanks for the messages. 

 

Going through my history (as I closed the tab a while back), and assuming this is the correct link:

ページが見つかりませんでした - Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art

The wayback machine doesn't appear to have the page archived (which iirc is often the case for Aoi (plus their archive site is so outdated, its a shame its not kept up to date till recent time)). Now that I think about it, perhaps most people go to the actual auction page to look at things, I don't have that link available but if someone shares it I'll give it another look. Thank you. 

Edited December 14, 2025 by Fuuten

[eternal_newbie]

7 minutes ago, Fuuten said:

I don't have that link available but if someone shares it I'll give it another look

 

Unfortunately it looks like the auction link has been removed too. Interesting...

 

Anyway, check your inbox, I've sent you a message with the contents of the listing.

[reinhard]

Just a wild guess from a distance, but the surface steel seems to suffer from lenghtwise cracks appearing when a bent blade is straightened again.

 

reinhard

 

Edited January 2 by reinhard

[Bugyotsuji]

My impression from admittedly shallow experience is that shinaé manifest across, not along, the blade.

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

My impression from admittedly shallow experience is that shinaé manifest across, not along, the blade.

I agree, to me those lines look like ware, rather than just a colored wrinkle.....not a very good picture though

[Brian]

Could appear like that, especially if it happened with masame, where it may open the grain. No expert, but it is something to consider.

[lonely panet]

the old saying goes

 

HE WHO DOSNT KNOW,  DOES NOT SPEAK.

 

but i would question modern weildy thingys have have funny funs 

 

but the only thing more questionable then the sword is the seller

[Bazza]

Has the legendary 'sword stretcher' raised its ugly head again??!!

 

BaZZa.

[Hoshi]

Hi, 

 

I wrote about this sword here. 

 

The sword was twisted, and as a result of repair, these shinae appeared. 

 

Best

 

Hoshi

 

[eternal_newbie]

3 hours ago, lonely panet said:

HE WHO DOSNT KNOW,  DOES NOT SPEAK.

 

"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."

 

This being a forum on the Internet, however, means pretty much everyone speaks, know or know-not.