Decrease in the rating of swordsmiths for the younger generation

[Brano]

Again, I had some fun with the camera
This time Hizen Nidai Masahiro wakizashi - a few photos to share
I searched a bit for good examples of his father's blades and I don't think this piece lags behind his father's skill
Hawley, Toko Taikan and Fujishiro ratings are lower in all three cases
I know that the exception always confirms the rule - but mostly I see a decline in the rating of skills for the younger generations in the line
Is it due to the real loss of skills of future generations, or is it more the cause of the social prestige of the older generations?

[Brano]

[Stephen]

Some very good work. Well done!

[Alex A]

Nice, reminds me of Tadakuni.

 

Its all a myth, made up by those that can afford Shodai 

[16k]

That’s a lovely blade. That Hada is just sumptuous.

[vajo]

Very good pictures. Nice sword.

[Ooitame]

Nice pictures and sword! All cases are different, depending on the lineage, and available swords for comparison, it could be both or one of the two reasons you stated. 

[kissakai]

Mine is 3rd gen Hizen and he is highly rated!

[Fuuten]

Also consider the unavailability of better grade tamehagane during several periods and regions.

 

And great job on the photos!

[Jacques]

Brano,

 

Fujishiro rated both shodai and nidai Hizen Masahiro jo saku 

 

39 minutes ago, kissakai said:

Mine is 3rd gen Hizen and he is highly rated!

 

The third generation never signed Masahiro but Masanaga and he is rated chujo as well yondai Masahiro.

[Brano]

23 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Brano,

 

Fujishiro rated both shodai and nidai Hizen Masahiro jo saku 

 

 

The third generation never signed Masahiro but Masanaga and he is rated chujo as well yondai Masahiro.

Jacques - may be wrong, but Shodai is Jo-Jo

https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/list?id_op=%3D&id=&name_op=starts&name=masahiro&kanji_op=%3D&kanji=&province=68&start_era=All&school_nid=All

 

[Brano]

34 minutes ago, Fuuten said:

Also consider the unavailability of better grade tamehagane during several periods and regions.

 

And great job on the photos!

I think the difference in generation is 20-30 years which should not affect tamahagane as such
In addition, a good swordsmith, even after changing the place where he produced the blades maintained his quality and probably produced tamahagane from local sources.
We can only assume many things today

[Fuuten]

Yes but technique only goes so far. I can't remember where but I read an Interesting page or article on the iron ore in Bizen province with locations and notes. If I can recall where exactly I read it I'll add. I think the theory is viable regardless of location. 

 

I think in 20 or 30 years depending on when actually they are put a lot can change but yeah it remains speculation. Just wanted to throw the variable in there.

[Surfson]

It's an interesting question, Brano.  There are certainly several smiths where the nidai is arguably more famous than the shodai.  I am thinking Kawachi no Kami Kunisuke, Echizen Sukehiro, Kanemoto (Magoroku).  In the case of Ishido Korekazu, the nanadai is as famous as the shodai, I believe.  But in general, you are probably right.  It would be interesting to test whether it is a true quality difference or is more some sort of social pressure.  I hope that it is the former.

[Rivkin]

There is definitely expected reduction in quality compared to the founder's passion, and overall East Asian perception of history is the one where you have ancient Golden Age (Yellow Emperor or Kamakura Bakufu) and then morals decay and things get worse.

I think its quite amazing that the ratings in the good book are actually quite predictive of real life's quality; this being said, I feel they can be also misleading. Quite a few supposedly chu-jo-saku smiths are just not well known or churned up too many average blades, but could still do a masterpiece on special order. I would not place much hope on different books treating the rankings independently, since they all essentially cross-referenced either each other or the same earlier sources. 

 

With Hizen I personally never felt awed by Hizen Tadayoshi. If you do Rai, you have to show impressive utsuri. I don't feel he is at the same level as others of the same style.

Actually I even prefer somewhat earlier Hizen Masatsugu, who was heavily Soshu-leaning so his suguha has more of Soshu Yukimitsu, with lots of nie and Yamato-like formations.

Masahiro first generation believed by some, myself included, to be one of the greatest of shinto. On par with Shinkai and Sukehiro. But he can be extremely flamboyant. Tons of ara nie and tobiyaki. Second generation to my eyes is a tad more balanced. There is also Yukihiro who is very interesting, but he does not have the same level of nie size control. Instead of sunagashi and clouds of nie you get "belts". There is also Kunihiro who is worse.

To me cases like this are good because you can still buy something excellent without bearing the full weight of signature premium.

[Jacques]

16 hours ago, Brano said:

Jacques - may be wrong, but Shodai is Jo-Jo

https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/list?id_op=%3D&id=&name_op=starts&name=masahiro&kanji_op=%3D&kanji=&province=68&start_era=All&school_nid=All

 

 

No Shodai is jo saku 

 

 

[Jacques]

Nidai 

 

[Alex A]

You would assume a student working with a teacher for a long time would pick up all the skills necessary to replicate the teachers work..

 

Times change, quality of materials, demand, costs etc.

 

Think the "respect your elders", goes a lot further in countries like Japan.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

You also have to consider the issue that the original smith likely picked up the trade because of a true love of the craft.  Likely even had natural talent.  Following children may have "picked up the family business" out of obligation; less love of the craft and more pressure to please father.  Yes, the son may still have been born with the natural talent.  But if the love of the work isn't there, then it will show in his workmanship.  Same principle applies in all businesses.

[Brano]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

You also have to consider the issue that the original smith likely picked up the trade because of a true love of the craft.  Likely even had natural talent.  Following children may have "picked up the family business" out of obligation; less love of the craft and more pressure to please father.  Yes, the son may still have been born with the natural talent.  But if the love of the work isn't there, then it will show in his workmanship.  Same principle applies in all businesses.

Yes Bruce - I know very well what you are talking about in real life
On the other hand, I take the view of the personal freedom and the individual's own path.

What satisfies the father / mother at work may not be satisfying their child.

Life is short and everyone should, if possible, do what makes them happy - but it's a completely different topic 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Brano said:

Yes Bruce - I know very well what you are talking about in real life
On the other hand, I take the view of the personal freedom and the individual's own path.

What satisfies the father / mother at work may not be satisfying their child.

Life is short and everyone should, if possible, do what makes them happy - but it's a completely different topic 

Sure, we have that freedom. I admit I do not know the Japanese culture especially back then well enough, but is it possible that children were told by their fathers “you will continue the family business“ and their obedience is demanded?”  

[Rivkin]

One has to add that "decreasing quality of later generations" with respect to pre-Muromachi items has a tint of self-fulfilling prophecy. While attributions to different lineages are (hopefully) based on kantei features, within the same linage quality plays a significant role. So we can find shinto signed chu-jo-saku with a first class blade, but in the world of early mumei blades such attribution cannot happen in principle. If its first class work it will be attributed to the founder. This also prevents one from objectively appreciating the second generation's real quality level - something which is quite possible in shinto and shinshinto. 

[Greg F]

Some excellent pictures of a nice sword there.

[Brano]

12 hours ago, Rivkin said:

One has to add that "decreasing quality of later generations" with respect to pre-Muromachi items has a tint of self-fulfilling prophecy. While attributions to different lineages are (hopefully) based on kantei features, within the same linage quality plays a significant role. So we can find shinto signed chu-jo-saku with a first class blade, but in the world of early mumei blades such attribution cannot happen in principle. If its first class work it will be attributed to the founder. This also prevents one from objectively appreciating the second generation's real quality level - something which is quite possible in shinto and shinshinto. 

I fully agree Kirill
from the beginning I was hoping to find a good koto mumei somewhere for an affordable price (and I'm probably not alone)
However, I quickly realized that it was almost impossible for the reasons you stated

[Jacques]

13 hours ago, Rivkin said:

One has to add that "decreasing quality of later generations" with respect to pre-Muromachi items has a tint of self-fulfilling prophecy. While attributions to different lineages are (hopefully) based on kantei features, within the same linage quality plays a significant role. So we can find shinto signed chu-jo-saku with a first class blade, but in the world of early mumei blades such attribution cannot happen in principle. If its first class work it will be attributed to the founder. This also prevents one from objectively appreciating the second generation's real quality level - something which is quite possible in shinto and shinshinto. 

 

You will hardly find a juyo  made by a chu-jo smith. 

And about pre Muromachi mumei swords, you are plainly wrong; just an example below but there are numerous (both are saijo). When shinsa team has a doubt on which smith made a sword, attribution will be mainly done to the school (Tegai, shikakke,  Ichimonji and so on).

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeiattributed-as-rai-kunitoshidiscounted/

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-rai-kunimitsu-49th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

 

[Brano]

Sorry for my ignorance Jacques
I don't know what you wanted to say by comparing two Rai blades
(I would personally opt for the one attributed to Kunimitsu)
From the sugata it seems to me that the blade attributed to Kunitoshi is apparently older than that attributed to Kunimitsu

[16k]

18 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Sure, we have that freedom. I admit I do not know the Japanese culture especially back then well enough, but is it possible that children were told by their fathers “you will continue the family business“ and their obedience is demanded?”  

I don’t think they needed to be told. Confucianism dictated it.

[16k]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

 

You will hardly find a juyo  made by a chu-jo smith. 

And about pre Muromachi mumei swords, you are plainly wrong; just an example below but there are numerous (both are saijo). When shinsa team has a doubt on which smith made a sword, attribution will be mainly done to the school (Tegai, shikakke,  Ichimonji and so on).

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumeiattributed-as-rai-kunitoshidiscounted/

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-rai-kunimitsu-49th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

 

Jacques, we certainly have different definitions for "affordable". Something the price of a good car is certainly not "affordable". 

[Brano]

Price is not a discussion - in the end it is always determined by the market
And then what level of the given commodity we can afford
We probably all realize that for a few thousand USD it is not possible to buy a good blade (from a seller who understands what it sells)

[Jacques]

1 hour ago, Brano said:

Sorry for my ignorance Jacques
I don't know what you wanted to say by comparing two Rai blades
(I would personally opt for the one attributed to Kunimitsu)
From the sugata it seems to me that the blade attributed to Kunitoshi is apparently older than that attributed to Kunimitsu

 

What I wanted to show with these 2 examples is that what Rivkin says is false ( If its first class work it will be attributed to the founder), the 2 blacksmiths that I quoted are not the founders of the Rai school which is Tarö Kuniyuki.