Type 95 in polished condition

[vajo]

Anyone here bought these Type95 from Japan in polished condition? I was sitting in front of the monitor to buy or not to buy. But at the end i didn't was brave enough because some things with the blade fears me.

The koshirae and stamps looks authentic but on some points on the blade i was not sure from the pictures. So thought maybe it is a replacement.

 

Overall a very nice package and a steal for this low price. Congrats to who ever has bought it. It is a fine looking Type95!

 

Anyone here in the board get the sword?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KATANA-WWII-Imperial-Japan-NCO-Army-Sword-Gunto-Type-95-Blade-length-66-9cm-/143461694487?hash=item2166fbbc17%3Ag%3AGVQAAOSwgsdd0AGF&nma=true&si=%252FUrwe%252F1ogHk8SiyhQTV%252FpdeaeNM%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[Brian]

Seller was nuts. Bet he could have gotten 5 x that selling it in Japan on Yahoo.
Unavailable stuff like this goes for huge money to collectors in Japan due to the lack of supply.

[Shamsy]

That's the Iijima I posted as an example of a 95 with a hamon. It's been listed for weeks. I thought about buying it a few times, but while it'd be nice to have a polished (average, but polished nonetheless) example, it doesn't really add anything to my collection. I'd rather save funds for something rare or unique, or a sword that proves a theory.

[IJASWORDS]

These always beg the question about Japan's view on weapon swords as opposed to art swords. Looks like there is a registration paper with the Dept of Culture as well. Kinda makes no sense when you hear about Japans' ban on military stuff. 

[ChrisW]

Well, when you start hearing about gendaito getting papered, it makes me think they're slowly changing their minds or rather.. a new generation is seeing reason. (Or whatever you want to call it)

[Ray Singer]

Gendaito have been receiving papers for quite some time.

[16k]

But that’s the thing, Ray, it’s not a Gendaito!

[Ray Singer]

Yes, only replying to Chris W's comment.

[vajo]

The high nummber on the blade and the shape of the nakago makes me some headache.

 

The numbers dont fit to the timeline. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Wasn't me, Chris.

 

As to papering, I don't remember the thread where it was shown that Japan is allowing war swords to be registered if they were either owned since the war, or were owned by family members who fought in the war.

 

I think they've gotten pretty loose about it. I was in an antique shop recently, looking at an old gunto, pretty bad condition, and the shop owner said that if I wanted to buy it he'd get it registered and ship it to me.

 

Agree the nakago is really unusual, by you know how it is with gunto - make a rule and you'll always find the exception! A 5-digit serial number isn't what I'd call "high". They were making 20-30,000 of these per year!

 

[vajo]

Yes Bruce, but what type is it. Early, middle or late stage? So the type of the numbers must fit to the stamp. Also the shape of the nakago was changed between all types.

Btw is dont want to find out that the swordblade is not original. I found it very interesting. And when it is middle stage it would shown that they had a hamon too.

 

For myself i like that sword.

[Brian]

Personally, I have yet to decide if any of these have a hamon....in spite of the topic about that.
In fact, I doubt it. I think all of these have a polished-on hamon, and unless we see nie or nioi, will continue to doubt it.
It is easy and logical that they were given a cosmetic hamon. And those in Japan, even more-so to keep them classified as worthy of preservation and not weapons.
All I have seen so far is a whitish polished area. Remember the hamon is the border, made up of nie or nioi. Not just a hazy strip. Ignore that whitish stripe and look for the actual border line.
I bet these were through-hardened as most swords are.
Prove me wrong

[vajo]

Personally, I have yet to decide if any of these have a hamon....in spite of the topic about that.

In fact, I doubt it. I think all of these have a polished-on hamon, and unless we see nie or nioi, will continue to doubt it.

It is easy and logical that they were given a cosmetic hamon. And those in Japan, even more-so to keep them classified as worthy of preservation and not weapons.

All I have seen so far is a whitish polished area. Remember the hamon is the border, made up of nie or nioi. Not just a hazy strip. Ignore that whitish stripe and look for the actual border line.

I bet these were through-hardened as most swords are.

Prove me wrong

Its hard to say if there is a real or polished  acid hamon. 

I cut out the picture and make it a little bigger and auto correction.

 

 

Thin white line and a dark shadow? I dont know maybe it comes from photoshop after correction? Try it self with your own program. Without having this blade in hand  impossible to say its real or not.

 

This kanenori showa-to hamon looks nearly the same.

[Shamsy]

A fair call, Brian. A question though and probably one for the board at large... How do you definitively 'prove' that a sword has a hamon? I mean, if these are oil quenched hamon, which seems likely, are we ever likely to see much more than the fuzzy cloud of white? I take it you would need to see some close-up photographs of the nie and/nioi?

 

Having a 95 properly polished might help make that more apparent, but I think it was Bruce who stated something along the lines of 'who would be crazy enough to have one polished?'.

 

I'm certainly no expert on Japanese swords or their construction, so I'm happy to sit in the middle here and hope someone better will continue to look into this. I agree that a through-harden is likely on pattern 3 onwards, but I'll hold out hope that the former two may exhibit differential hardening.

[Stegel]

I'm with Brian on this topic.

I think any hamon on Type95 swords is chemically etched if anything. Similar to parade swords and such.

Close up photo's are needed to help determine this, i don't have any so can't help there.

I know the prototype definitely has an etched hamon, so logically they may have included the process during early production, but i'd be guessing to be honest.

Differential hardening on these i believe, is a 'wish' list  bonus, and not very likely.

Just my 2cents worth boys...

[16k]

Even an oil tempered blade produces a nioi line. Here, we just see a cloudy white band, so I’m in the artificially etched bandwagon.

[Brian]

Even an oil tempered blade produces a nioi line. Here, we just see a cloudy white band, so I’m in the artificially etched bandwagon.

If differentially hardened, ie. there is some sort of coating or edge heating. Like Showato. Then yes..you get a nioi line.

However, not if you heat the whole blade and oil quench (al-la Forged in Fire) as I suspect these were done. Then no hada, and hence why I think some have the artificial hamon or at best a hazy area caused by the edge being thinner and cooling faster.

[vajo]

Swords like this Kanenori had then a acid etched hamon too?

 

 

I thought it was conclusion that the Type98 Showa-to had a real hamon. But I'm now not sure about all. Maybe, and this is real speculating that the swords have a lot of varities on quality and how they was made.

 

Or on other hand some of the Type 95 had a better quality as we all expect. And this would be a little revolution in the militaria collector scene.

[16k]

If differentially hardened, ie. there is some sort of coating or edge heating. Like Showato. Then yes..you get a nioi line.

However, not if you heat the whole blade and oil quench (al-la Forged in Fire) as I suspect these were done. Then no hada, and hence why I think some have the artificial hamon or at best a hazy area caused by the edge being thinner and cooling faster.

You’re right Brian, when I said oil tempered, I meant it in type 98 oil tempered, so differentially tempered. The 95, I believe are through tempered in oil or water. As such, they don’t have a nioi temper line.

 

Chris, I think the 98s are in their majority differentially tempered. Now, it doesn’t mean they didn’t experiment and I wouldn’t me surprised if some were spring tempered with an etched Hamon added. It could have been an experiment like gensuito. A spring tempered blade is very resilient (at least, modern ones are!) and we know that they were making experiment to make better gunto, so that’s not out of the realm of possibilities. Then again, the blade you’re showing seems to show a real Hamon, especially in the kissaki, so who knows?

 

Besides, there seems to be a discrepancy in the transition between the Boshi and the Ji. I think the real Hamon is closer to the ha and the hazy Hamon goes higher than the nioiguchi.

[vajo]

I know what you mean JP, but please compare the ebay polished type95 picture which i had load up against the Kanenori hamon. It is obviously the same. I see no difference. That is what me makes thinking.

[16k]

I don’t know, Chris. Follow the line from the Boshi. I think this is the real Hamon. Try different angles. I think the Hamon as we see it is the result of polishing and the nioiguchi is lost in the middle of it.

[vajo]

The sword is long gone i had it sold. I have no type 98 Showa-to any longer.

[Bruce Pennington]

Part of my problem with this discussion is my poor understanding of terminology. I probably misuse the term "hamon", because I'm refering to the white, visible line along the cutting edge, sometimes straight (suguha?), sometimes patterned/wavy (various names of patterns). I've recently learned, from a discussion of the intricate details involved in the the polishing process, that the whiteness is caused 2 ways, one called artificial and the other more natural.

 

So, what I'm taking a long time to say (Remember L.O.T.R: "Anything worth saying, is worth taking a long time to say") is I can see the visible evidence of tempering on my 95s. I assumed that this comes out white if polished, like the example Chris provided.

[vajo]

Ok, i made it bigger and try to explain it.

 

 

How can be that done with acid. I have no clue.

[Dave R]

 Have a read through here, not just this page but the previous as well. One of the most informative and tyro friendly sites around on traditional swords. The buzz words here are "Hadori". and "Kesho".

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togistyles.html

[vajo]

I give up! 

 

Guys i show you marks of a real hamon. This is not done by polish with acid. I'm out now of the discussion. 

[Austus]

As a "newbie" of 6 years or so, this is an area I am still struggling with. Was relieved to see Bruce's response, having trouble with the terminology used; because he's well informed and experienced. The use of the term "white line" is much of the problem. It seems that many times, when using the term hamon, people are really talking about the yakiba. When you throw in the effects of Hadori, it can be quite confusing. I'm still trying to understand "activity" or lack thereof; and the difference that oil tempering makes versus traditional. It seems that oil tempered blades don't have activity; but there are many traditional blades that look the same way. That's a great website, Dave (and JP); but I'm still grappling with this.

 

Hate to include this; but I had a Type 95 in the 68,000 range which I accidentally poked into my drywall. That curled the tip slightly. Makes me wonder if these were even hardened or well tempered. I sold it at a loss. 

[vajo]

Austus it is hard for me to describe type 95 blades in respect of true nihonto. So i would never use the terms to describe such a blade.

 

All of these oil hardnend sword haven't any activities. The question is only if these swords where differential hardned. If they where hardned in that way you see it in the steel. And i think these pictures i showed came from a differential hardning.

 

But there is nothing to compare with hardenend in water. Its a homogene structure. Only different HRC - maybe.

[Shamsy]

I think the main impediment here is that most if not all 95s I've seen are so mirror polished (as in buffed) that there's nothing really to see. That's why I was interested in seeing the actual polished sword on eBay. I thought that was a fair indication of at least some differential hardening. However, this is certainly not my area of expertise and unless someone wants to get a copper (as I think that's the best bet) polished... I'm not sure we'll ever see enough to know.

 

I suppose that if we refer back to WHY the Type 95 was introduced, it was primarily to increase cutting power of the sword through a two handed grip. Other than the shape of the sword, I'm not sure what impact differential hardening would have.

 

Another small consideration is that some 95 were private purchases by officers. Would said officer have the blade annealed and tempered again? That seems unlikely, since the implied 'rent/buy' buy a 95 screams 'interim measure' to me...

[PNSSHOGUN]

Easy way is to perform a hardness test on the "hamon" and Ji.