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tachi horimono translation

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#1 zilul

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 04:05 PM

Hi all,

         just hoping someone would have the time to have a look at this tachi, I believe the mei is signed Tomonari but unsure of which particular one but leaning towards Settsu, not because I am particularly clever but on the basis that apart from Ko Bizen tomonari he is the only other one to sign with 2 characters  TO 139.

 

     Have not been able to find a signature of this particular smith so if some can point me in the right direction it would be appreciated, the Kanji on the blade are proving quite elusive to translate so a little help from the learned members would be good, with regard to the dragon and cloud horimono I have not been able to find a reference for this either so more than a little interested in finding out more on this if anyone can help.

 

    The pictures below are not of the quality of some I have seen on here, not very good with a camera, but if anyone has any suggestions of how to improve them it would be most welcome.

 

    Thanks in advance.

 

     Paul

 

 

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Paul

#2 zilul

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 04:15 PM

Just a few more pictures

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Paul

#3 Mark

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 07:08 PM

it is signed tachi-mei. based on that and the quality of the inscription i would guess it is a shinshinto blade with Ko-Bizen name inscribed


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#4 yimu

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 09:50 PM

looks like a forgery to me....


Y i m u Y i n

#5 seattle1

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 10:32 PM

Hello:

 It looks like Tomogatsu.

 Arnold F.



#6 zilul

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 10:52 PM

Hi Arnold, cannot find a listing anywhere for Tomogatsu can you please supply a reference.   

 

 

   Paul


Paul

#7 ROKUJURO

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:06 PM

Paul,

weelcome to the board!

Your blade seems doubtful to me. Without the KANJI on the SHINOGI JI, the strange MEI, and the HORIMONO it has indeed the look of a later blade (SHIN-SHINTO?), but all in all I think it is not a genuine Japanese blade.  


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Jean C.

#8 John A Stuart

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 11:59 PM

I vote replica. John



#9 Stephen

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:09 AM

Im sure we have seen this before.

                    Stephen C.

            USMC DEC 63 APR 73

     I can see for miles and miles from this vantage point!

                          GOCnSLT


#10 Peter Bleed

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:15 AM

I agree that this blades looks like a Chinese fake. No one seems to want to be unkind. But  we also need to be truthful. This looks like a fake to me.

Peter


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#11 seattle1

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:19 AM

Hello Paul:

 Welcome to the NMB by all means. There are lots of well informed people on it who would be ready to help and happy to give you positive feedback if it were there, but I am afraid that you were duped somewhere along the line on this one. Assuming my reading is correct I checked the so called Brown Hawley, the largest compendium of names in the English Japanese sword literature and no such smith is listed. There are a number of red flags from the mei which is signed usually in the mode of a tachi while the blade seems shaped like an uchi-gatana, the horimono which leaves a lot to be desired and the strangely done kanji on the blade all point a typically confused Chinese workshop somewhere right now.

 As everyone would say: build a library, get a look at some really good Japanese swords to set your template, go to some shows, ask around, and then put your toe in the water.

 Arnold F.


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#12 Bazza

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:20 AM

I thought Chinese fake/replica at first sight.  Nihonto is a tough gig to be sure.

 

BaZZa.


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#13 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 05:37 AM

I think the sword is genuine, though not Koto. The horimono, signature and whoever sold it to are certainly not. More close up pictures of the kissaki would help.


John


#14 Geraint

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 01:54 PM

Dear Paul.

 

Can you remove the habaki and take a shot of the area underneath it?  That might help us.  Also if you can get up to London to one of the Token Society meetings and show it to some of the guys they will be able to see much more with the blade in hand than we can from these images.  I'm a fair step from you but if you happen to be coming down this way on holiday I'd be happy to oblige.  

 

One other thing, does it have koshirae and if so what's that like?

 

Still hoping for a positive outcome on this one.

 

All the best.


Geraint

#15 raaay

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:22 PM

hi Paul

I am afraid as said already there are a few red flags , but fingers crossed it is still Japanese , one thing to check, see if the shira-saya handle has a horn mount or ??

Ray :)


#16 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:44 PM

Gents, thanks for all your input looks like there is a little division amongst you all from an out and out Chinese replica to maybe a genuine blade with dodgy horimono and mei , incidentally, based on my original question has anyone found a tomonari reference mei?, attached are a few more snaps some as requested by the members showing some of the ware in the blade.

 

Regards

 

          Paul

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Paul

#17 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:47 PM

Ray, 

         the mounts to the shira saya are ebony not horn unfortunately.

 

        Paul


Paul

#18 Grey Doffin

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 04:19 PM

Looking to the 5th picture just posted; is there a mune machi and does it line up with the ha machi?  If the answer to either is no then I think this is a fake.

Grey



#19 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 04:26 PM

Arnold F.

 

            In  reply to your above post it was not myself that suggested that it was signed Tomogatsu that was your interpretation of the mei, with regard to my suggestion of Tomonari the signature bears a striking resemblance in form to that of the Ko Bizen smith Tomonari which you can find on pages24/25 of  Fujishiro's  Koto Hen .

 

  Congratulations on being the owner of Hawley,s Brown book as I only have the earlier first edition blue books which some think are somewhat lacking, I am not sure if the page numbers are the same but if you care to look on page 392 ( in blue books ) you will find listings for 4 smiths by that name and my original inquiry was along the lines of could it be the Settsu Tomonari.

 

     Thanks for the advise about getting books , I already have a small library of some , as you might have gathered from the above.


Paul

#20 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 04:49 PM

Grey,

          thanks for taking a look your comment made me have a look again at the blade and the mune machi and the ha machi line up perfectly, as I qualified in the first post my camera skills are a little above zero and on looking at the photo in question I can fully see the reasoning behind your comment, will see if I can get  a pal who is a bit useful with a camera to take a few pictures, incidentally I am glad that you included blanks in your kaji flashcards as I have been able to add the nari kanji without spoiling the integrity of the set.

 

      Paul


Paul

#21 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 05:27 PM

The sword is not a fake, I would be deeply disturbed if the Chinese had gotten that good. Unfortunately Paul I think that's where the story ends, this sword has all the hallmarks of a Gimei: poor Horimono, crude signature, a tired blade with a very much more Shinto than Koto sugata.

 

The lesson to take away is to base the Kantei on the sword, not the signature.


John


#22 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 05:33 PM

John,

          thanks for the helpful comments good to hear that you feel that the blade is not a fake but regarding the mei have you any reference for  supposed tomonari signature, it just seems that it is being decried as gimei , or worse ,but no one is able to offer a genuine signature for comparison.

 

    Paul


Paul

#23 raaay

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 06:25 PM

Hi Paul

if it is ebony that's fine , the reason I asked is I know someone who used to make shira saya and they used, shall we say a synthetic material for the horn mounts .
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Ray :)


#24 Peter Bleed

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 06:42 PM

Paul,

Your thread has generated a nice conversation which caused me to go back and look at your pictures. I must adjust my earlier post. It was a hipshot based on a quick scan of the horimono and the nakago. Upon closer inspection I wan to recast my opinion. The signature looks entirely suspicious to me and so does the engraving on the blade. These look like nonJapanese embellishments.

Peter


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#25 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:02 PM

Peter,

           good of you to take another look , thank you, with regard to the signature, starting to sound like a broken record now, as I have asked a couple of time in the above does anyone have a link or anything to a genuine signature for comparison, I know that when I look back at a signature of my own from 50 years ago it bears little resemblance to how I sign today, all the correct letters are there but in a slightly different form and I suppose that it is not unreasonable for someone to ask for documentary support for an opinion.

 

Paul


Paul

#26 Brian

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:48 PM

Can't post a reference mei, as this mei does not resemble any real smith out there. No Japanese would write like that, so nothing to compare with.
Real sword imho, but added mei and horimono.


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#27 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 08:00 PM

Brian,

           thanks for you interest in this topic but I think that there must be a little ambiguity in my post. The reason for asking for a " reference mei "has probably not been made clear enough by myself, what I was asking for was a mei by settsu tomonari to disprove that the signature is not of that smith, people have been suggesting all through the thread that the mei is a  "wrong un", in my local parlance, fine I have no issue with that but show me a correct one that's all I am asking but it seems like I am asking for heaven and earth, neither you nor I could stand up in court of law and say we think something is not correct without being challenged to substantiate / prove  our claim / opinion

 

Paul


Paul

#28 Mark

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:03 PM

Paul

 

can you give us a reference (book and page) where we could find the oshigata you need?  I went to the JSS/US index (that Grey Doffin produced) and it only lists the Old Tomonari and a gendai smith using different kanji.  Grey used all the common books we use in his index and as there is no listing for the Settsu Tomonari it seems he did not make it into any of the books he indexed.  So other than searching obscure books looking for an oshigata (that would take hours or days of work) we would need some type of lead on where you expect to find it.  Let us know where to look and i am sure someone will post it but it is not fair to expect us to conjure it up or spend hours searching


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#29 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:39 PM

Paul I cannot provide you a mei example as it seems that the Tomonari from Settsu was very unknown smith. In Seskos Index he is listed being from Nakajima-Rai school and working c. 1360's. None of the mei references I have do not feature this smith. Granted I do not have any books focusing on Nakajima-Rai.

 

There are 7 Tomonari signing with these kanji in Seskos, 6 Bizen smiths and 1 from Settsu. My personal guess is that this isn't signed by any of the 7.

 

I would try to go by opposite approach and leave the signature out of the picture, do you think your sword has mid-Nanbokuchō shape and Nakajima-Rai characteristics?


Jussi Ekholm


#30 zilul

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 10:40 PM

Mark,

          thanks for reply and completely understand where you are coming from however I have tried to find said oshigata to no avail which is why I have posted on here hoping that some of the more learned on here might be able to locate one. All I have to go on is what I believe and Hawleys number TO 139, I guess that I was hoping that someone on here had come across this smith before so therefore might be able to point me in the right direction.

 

    Interestingly Hawley cites him as being Nakajima Rai Tomonari, but he also signed with the 2 character mei, son of yoshiuji 1362.

 

 It was never my intention to expect some one to do my research for me as  that can be a great learning process in itself and something that I wholeheartedly subscribe to as I am a great believer in the motto of the Royal Society  Nullius in verba

 

  Paul


Paul





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