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Mass Produced Sukesada?

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#1 Marius G

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 08:08 PM

Hello,

 

I am a novice collector and recently purchased the Katana in the photos attached below.

 

I would like to know if it is a mass produced sword or it has much more merit?!

 

Signature : Bizen koku Ju Osafune Sukesada Saku
Tenbun 16 nen 8 gatsu kijijitsu (August 1547)

Blade length : 65.2 cm or 25.67 inches.
Sori : 2.4 cm or 0.94 inches.
Width at the hamachi : 2.93 cm or 1.15 inches.
Width at the Kissaki : 1.77 cm or 0.70 inches.
Kasane : 0.63 cm or 0.25 inches.

 

Regards,

 

Marius

 

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#2 christianmalterre

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 08:13 PM

you definitely did buy you a nice Tsuba here in this set!

:)!

Christian


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#3 Brian

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 08:20 PM

You want to know if it is a kazuuchimono?

It has papers, it is from a decent dealer, it is in good polish, the workmanship looks decent. No major flaws. It has nice koshirae.

I wouldn't worry too much :)


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#4 raymondsinger

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 08:35 PM

Although Nakahara does not buy into the idea that the length of signature in Sue-Bizen has a relationship to whether it is a kazuuchimono or not, my experience is that in daito from mid-to-later 1500s a long signature like yours [Bizen (no) Kuni Ju Osafune Sukesada Saku + Date] indicates a better quality sword.

 

Best regards,

Ray


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#5 Marius G

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 08:50 PM

Thank you for your comments!

 

I actually love this blade as it has a deep sori and looks almost like a smaller Tachi (at least in my eyes). :)  And the Koshirae is very nice as well.

 

I assume it is a katate-uchi Katana (or katate-Uchigatana), right?!


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#6 Stephen

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 09:40 PM

Did you ask Tsuruta san?


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#7 Marius G

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 10:09 PM

Did you ask Tsuruta san?

Thank you for your message but I don't know who Tsuruta san is. How can I contact him?

Regards,

Marius

 

PS: Now I know who Mr. Tsuruta is. Thank you once again! :)


Marius G

#8 Jean

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 10:24 PM

Aoi Art from which this sword was sold has for manager Tsuruta san.
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#9 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 10:25 PM

info@aoijapan.jp

He owns the shop you bought the sword from.

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#10 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 10:26 PM

Oh and PS: I think you did fine on this sword depending on how much it cost obviously. It's a nice sword.

#11 Marius G

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 10:54 PM

Oh and PS: I think you did fine on this sword depending on how much it cost obviously. It's a nice sword.

Thank you very much for your message and photo!

 

Yes, I got my sword from Aoi Art, and I recognize the gentleman in the photo from the photos I have seen on Aoi website. I somehow guessed he is the owner/ manager of the shop, but I didn't know what is name was.

 

Now I know! :thumbsup:

 

And, yes, I am pretty sure it is a nice sword, and now I know it is not a mass produced sword but a very carefully produced one. :)


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#12 Stephen

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 11:27 PM

re read post #4, Ray's post is one to remember, 


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#13 Hamfish

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 11:46 PM

 hi Marius,

 

with out jumping the line, there are some easy pointer to IDing bundle swords.

 

  1. they normally arnt dated, takes to much time
  2. the mei is short, either bishu or bishu ju
  3.  and the pics arnt good, but look at the work, is the hada course with openings or evan and visable

I should edit that abit, this is strickly within the sengoku period, due to the need for arming ashigaru, swords were made quickly and cheaply compared to other periods. but they are still fine weapons.

 

Hey Joe, IS his shop small and crowed or what. he can really fit some stuff in a small place


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#14 Marius G

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 12:14 AM

 hi Marius,

 

with out jumping the line, there are some easy pointer to IDing bundle swords.

 

  1. they normally arnt dated, takes to much time
  2. the mei is short, either bishu or bishu ju
  3.  and the pics arnt good, but look at the work, is the hada course with openings or evan and visable

 

Hey Joe, IS his shop small and crowed or what. he can really fit some stuff in a small place

 

Thank you very much! Now I begin to understand! :clap:

 

Of course if one is concerned only about producing more swords, won't want to waste too much time inscribing a long and detailed signature, then waste even more time inscribing a date...

 

And yes, the hada is very, very fine on my sword. Hardly visible with the naked eye. Surely it took a lot of time and many foldings to come up like this.

 

Thank you again for this short, concise and very welcomed lesson!   :thumbsup: 

 

Have a nice weekend! :)


Marius G

#15 Marius G

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 12:21 AM

re read post #4, Ray's post is one to remember, 

Thank you very much!

 

Now I begin to understand (see my reply to Hamfish). :thumbsup:

 

Have a nice weekend! :)


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#16 vajo

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 12:59 AM

Very very nice sword.
Congratulation for buying it.

#17 Chango

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 02:39 AM

I assume it is a katate-uchi Katana (or katate-Uchigatana), right?!


A bit too late and too big for a "katate-uchi"; such swords fell out of favor by the early 1530s and had shorter nagasa and nakago/tsuka for strictly 1-handed use Just plain "uchigatana"... not a bad sword though!
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#18 SwordGuyJoe

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 04:04 AM

Yes - his shop is ridiculously small and very cluttered.
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#19 mywei

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 08:43 AM

Yes - his shop is ridiculously small and very cluttered.

Must be one of the  highest areas of nihonto density per square metre in the world!  :laughing:

 

Nice package overall. I quite like the kogai and kozuka as well.


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#20 Greg F

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 11:39 AM

Congratulations on the new sword, especially if it's your first. Koshirae looks good. I like the tsuba. Cheers.

Greg
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#21 Marius G

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 02:56 PM

Congratulations on the new sword, especially if it's your first. Koshirae looks good. I like the tsuba. Cheers.

Greg

 

Thank you! :)

 

Have a nice weekend!


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#22 Alex A

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 03:05 PM

 

.

 

And yes, the hada is very, very fine on my sword. Hardly visible with the naked eye.

 

 

You have answered your own question, according to Connoisseurs, look for rough masame hada in kazuuchi-mono.


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#23 Marius G

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 05:54 PM

You have answered your own question, according to Connoisseurs, look for rough masame hada in kazuuchi-mono.

 

Yes, I think I got the idea! :thumbsup:

 

Thank you! :)


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#24 Alex A

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 05:17 PM

A bit too late and too big for a "katate-uchi"; such swords fell out of favor by the early 1530s and had shorter nagasa and nakago/tsuka for strictly 1-handed use Just plain "uchigatana"... not a bad sword though!

 

Hi Jason, where did you read "katate-uchi" fell out of favour by the early 1530,s?. It was my understanding that they where used by mass infantry throughout the Sengoku.

 

Recently ive also been wondering about their continued use in Edo times, judging by the many examples you still see in Edo koshirae.

 

The nakago on the sword above does look to be intended for two handed use, the nagasa seems a little short for two handed use. Many katate-uchigatana that you see are machi-okuri, a longer tsuka added. Maybe by 1547 (as the blade states), some wise folk got tired of increasing tsuka length by machi-okuri and thought what the hell, lets add a decent length grip from the start, but what do I know :laughing:


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#25 Marius G

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 07:35 PM

What I can tell you is that the sword is sufficiently light to be comfortably handled with one hand, that's why I thought it may be a katate-uchi.


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#26 Alex A

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 08:08 PM

Maybe your correct :)


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#27 Alex A

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:50 PM

We can look at the sword and maybe speculate a little, its possible it was used one handed. There would have been times on a battlefield when two hands on a sword are better than one, blocking an heavy blow for instance, or when fatigue begins to kick in, hence why your sword may have a long nakago and why during those times many nakago of katate-uchigatana were machi-okuri (blade slightly shortened to increase tsuka length).

 

Its been mentioned before, but there is a notion that these days stuff like this gets overthought :laughing: 


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#28 Jussi Ekholm

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:16 PM

I wouldn't get too caught up on terminology. Couple cm either way does not change the sword much and there are no exactly set limits what seems to be called katate-uchi and what is bit over that limit.

 

Longer swords for two handed use (morote-uchi) usually started coming back and trending during Eiroku -> onwards but of course there can be longer examples even at the heart of katate-uchi era. Spears & rifles were just so much more useful than swords in warfare. Tenbun is mentioned usually as an era when swords gradually started getting slightly bigger again. Sources for that information are NBTHK and Tokyo National Museum.


Jussi Ekholm


#29 Hamfish

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 12:00 AM

my understanding was/is that most bizen katate-uhi are saki-zori, this looks more tori-zori. Like Jussi mentioned by or after tenbun (1530s) size started to move to a larger nagasa.

 

But iv noticed that quality on the whole dropped off as a average. does any agree?

This piece looks(poor photos) to be well above the standard for the time and for the normal Sukesada.

regards h


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#30 Chango

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 05:01 AM

Hi Jason, where did you read "katate-uchi" fell out of favour by the early 1530,s?. It was my understanding that they where used by mass infantry throughout the Sengoku.

Recently ive also been wondering about their continued use in Edo times, judging by the many examples you still see in Edo koshirae.

The nakago on the sword above does look to be intended for two handed use, the nagasa seems a little short for two handed use. Many katate-uchigatana that you see are machi-okuri, a longer tsuka added. Maybe by 1547 (as the blade states), some wise folk got tired of increasing tsuka length by machi-okuri and thought what the hell, lets add a decent length grip from the start, but what do I know :laughing:

Looks like the question has been answered by smarter people than me but here's a good quick summary:http://www.thesamura...ta_te_uchi.html

Bottom line, a katate-uchi essentially is an O-wakizashi (or barely past the arbitrary 2 shaku limit for a daito) 150 years or so before the definition of a wakizashi was formally enshrined in law by the Tokugawa Shogunate and decades before wearing a daisho was standard. It was intended as a "quick-draw" secondary offensive weapon for unmounted warriors but by the time of the Sengoku Jidai, trends and tactics favored the longer (2-handed ) katana over the katate-uchi. I think the so-called kazu uchi mono mass-produced blades were the "rank and file" swords of the Sengoku Jidai and they were like the OP's sword, only of much poorer quality.

This is just my own random guessing but this is also around the decades when metal plate armor showed up on the battlefield to counter matchlock guns; maybe 1-handed swords just weren't up to the task? Swords were of lessor importance on the battlefield anyway so it could have just been dictated byfashion.

Ultimately you'd have to define "katate uchi" by their short nagasa, sakisori, short nakago and having been made in that 1450-1530s time window, not to mention being mounted as one and not a wak/katana (just like how a tachi is only a tachi if you don't mount and wear it upside-down :) ) The concept didn't die though... instead it evolved into the shinogi zukri wakizashi as part of the daisho, so you could have the benefits of both a shorter 1-handed and longer 2-handed sword on your belt.
Jason A





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