Blade Cross section Pics FYI

[Stegel]

Hi all,

 

I don't know how many of you, if any at all, have seen broken blades up close.

This one is interesting in that i believe it is a soft inner core enveloped by a harder steel, the lines being clearly visible at the break. (Shintetsu & Uagane). The edge of the outer casing lines up with the top edge of the hamon.

This is the first one i've seen up close, so i may stand to be corrected by our more experienced guys.

I bought this for the WW2 Civilian Fittings only, the blade came as a bonus and i have NO idea how it got to break.

hope you all enjoy a view that you don't see a lot, and for sure would never want to see it happen to your own blades!

/Ernst

[kusunokimasahige]

Edited due to remark of Brian.

 

(still think it is not what Brian thinks it is, but well.)

 

KM

[Stegel]

Thanks KM,

As i said, i only bought the fittings, which are WW2 Civilian fittings.

The blade was of no concern to me.

/Ernst

[kusunokimasahige]

Hey Ernst,

 

I must say I am not sure whether the fittings are at all original... WWII civilian fittings seem a bit far fetched to me.

 

KM

[Brian]

Henk,

I think it's time for you to keep quiet a bit...you are lecturing people who know more than you.

How on earth did you make the determination this is a fake? The fittings are right for a Showa sword. The hi looks well done and the steel doesn't necessarily look cast at all. Most of these were deliberately broken as they are illegal in Japan, and are sold for the fittings.

Don't tell someone they bought rubbish unless it is confirmed.

 

Brian

[Stegel]

Here's one of the tsuba....

/Ernst

[Lance]

Those are fairly common fittings for Showa period, especially the fuchi-kashira. I've had 2 swords with those fittings, one with the same brass tsuba, the other was the same except the tsuba was iron, plus others I've seen in person or online.

Below is a sword (not mine) with the same fuchi-kashra

http://www.nihonto.com.au/html/masanobu_katana.html

 

Is there a Seki or Showa stamp on your sword? Just asking because the swords I've had or seen with those fittings were wartime Seki showato, I always thought those types of swords were just drawn out and shaped from bar stock, then oil hardened/tempered.

 

Lance

[kusunokimasahige]

Sorry Brian and Ernst if I was mistaken, I know more about military issued swords.

 

I have seen a few broken Japanese swords before and the inside looked very different than what I see here.

That made me judge it.

 

KM

[george trotter]

FYI, there is a pic of this exact tsuba and fuchi on page 47 of Fuller and Gregory "Military Swords of Japan"...under the caption "Showa-period tsuba and fuchi for civilian mounted swords"

I can attest that a good half dozen of these mounts (with lacquered wood saya) have passed through my hands over the last 40 years....all with "sho" stamped blades. Though not common, they are a distinct type one does come across from time to time.

I have long speculated that these were iai blades later fitted with leather combat covers for war service, but who knows.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

[kusunokimasahige]

Found it George !

 

Thank you for the directions.. I should open it more often.

 

KM

[cabowen]

Standard WWII era iai-to...Blade cross section is interesting...

[b.hennick]

The American Branch of the NBTHK (Ted Tenold and Keith Larman) put on a wonderful display of polished cross sections of blades at one of the shows a few years ago. It was easy to see the construction with those. Perhaps Ted will post a picture or two.

[Brian]

Yeah..I also find that cross section very interesting. Looks like we are seeing more than just monoblock steel there.

Might be interesting to cut an inch section out, and have it polished on the edge to see clearly what is there.

I think Ted or Keith did this at one stage possibly? Remember an old post about something similar.

 

Brian

[jrs]

Looks like the grooves were forged instead of being cut, IMHO.

James

[Stegel]

Some interesting comments from our local CSI team!

 

I was looking for the fittings when i came across the broken blade again.

As it was broken, i thought i'd post this thread for all to see the blade profile.

I posted the nakago of it last week, (it was on the what comes first in the smithing process question) where the fuller/bohi appeared to be 'rolled' on after the mei had been signed and as a result, only half the mei remained.

 

There are no showa or seki stamps on the nakago, if they were present, its possible the fuller was rolled over them, effectively removing all trace of them?

I'm inclined to agree with James, if the groove was cut, then wouldn't you stop before the mei, instead of damaging it? perhaps it was done by an apprentice?

I'm assuming it was still mass produced, so i'm not sure how the fuller is made in this case, perhaps forged, pressed or rolled (i'm inclined to think rolled), instead of the traditional hand cut.

 

Yes, you read my mind Brian, i was, and still am, going to see a friend at his workshop this week, where i intended to cut some 1 inch pieces off and hopefully see the profile more clearly. I'll add some more pics if they are of any interest.

 

I've added the nakago to refresh your memories!

 

/Ernst

[Surfson]

I wonder whether it is truly what we think it is. It is very odd that the supposed skin steel runs parallel to the supposed core steel even where the horimono is. This seems rather unlikely. I think that we had better come up with some alternative hypotheses about it.

[Grey Doffin]

Yes. I also was puzzled by what I was seeing. Other than the fact that the hi are cutting through what we have been taking as skin steel, the skin seems to run off the blade on each side just where the hamon would be. Hard to believe that the smith wanted the whole of the yakiba to be composed of core.

What is the alternate explanation, or am I missing something?

Grey

[Drago]

Hi Ernst,

 

very interesting, thanks.

 

I have a couple of questions and I'd be happy if you could answer them.

1. Is this a traditionally made blade? (I mean, even machined blades can be made with a hard egde and soft core)

2. Is the edge sharp?

3. Did you get the other part of the blade as well? If so, can you post a picture?

 

Thanks.

[Stegel]

I have the blade in front of me after cleaning the nakago earlier.

I did this to see if there were any showa/seki stamps or the remains of a stamp on the blade.

No Stamps or apparent remains of stamps are present.

 

Only the bottom half of the blade remains unfortunately, some 305mm of blade plus 215 of nakago.

It appears to have been well made, that is, the nakago is shaped with care, finished with file marks,which appear to be down the nakago at 40deg off the back of the nakago. It appears the whole of the nakago is coverd in file marks.

 

The blade is sharp the whole length up to the machi.

 

The temper line runs off the blade after the machi, in the area under the habiki.

It is the large wavy type(sorry i forget the name of it and don't have a text handy!)

 

The fuller width is wider along the blade and is reducing in width as we go along the nakago to the very end. I can feel this variation by running my fingers along the fuller the length of the blade.

The marks in the fuller run along the fuller, hence my guess at a roller being used

 

I'm assuming by the shape of the nakago that it is Gendiato/Showato. No evidence of a date signed on the reverse.

 

I hope this helps for now, until i get the pics of the cross sectional cuts later this week, i'll also include better pics of the whole blade and close ups of the nakago and hamon if possible.

 

/Ernst

 

BTW- i will get cuts made at the high and low ends of the wavy hamon, perhaps this will tell more on the apparent envelope we see in the original break?

[Surfson]

I don't know Grey, but I do wonder whether the different texture along the edges of the break may have been made during the stress of the fracture. One way to discern this would be to cut the blade flat across and then polish it down on the cross sectional plane. My guess is that one would find that it is made of only one piece of steel.

[SAS]

Very interesting; it looks as if it might be a type of san mai construction from the photos, also the grain seems coarse as if it had been overheated prior to the quench. Hard to say anything definitive from the photo but interesting to see.

[Dave R]

 Is there anything further on this story? At risk of making a now redundant comment on a subject long time cleared up, to me the mounts look like those described by Mr. Ohmura as Gunzoku mounts, the para-military "helpers" to the army.