16k

From what I can see, underneath the hadori polish, you have what seems to be a Mino Hamon. Hard to say more with that state of polish. Better pics of the tang would be great. as for bringing the Hamon out, you can’t. Period. It’s a profession and whatever action you would take would most likely ruin the blade. Amateur polish isn’t advocated on this site designed for the preservation of antique blades. Trust me, you can’t do it or if you do, you’ll most likely regret it afterwards.

What Neil wrote is also very interesting. Speaking about blades and koshirae. This is another “division” I guess among collectors. Some will be attracted to a particular type of swords looking at them as a whole. Others, like myself, don’t really care about the koshirae and think a sword is first and foremost the blade, the rest being just the cherry on the top. Personally, I’ve never been attracted to beautiful, very showy koshirae, preferring those that would have been carried by the average samurai. Something strong and practical over something beautiful but meant to stay in its saya. And I think this is one of the attractions of WW2 blades. They saw battle. Their koshirae haven’t yet been replaced like centuries old blades have been and are often found in late Edo mountings. WW2 blades are still the way they were on the battlefield. It adds to their appeal since you know a fighter and not a samurai turned bureaucrat held them.

It was made in China, sorry.

Oh, I do agree, Paul, And far from me the idea to exclude one group from the other. They all intermingle, at least partly. My “pure Nihonto” category isn’t meant as derogatory or anything. It’s just that some of us, particularly beginners, won’t often lay their eyes on one of these swords. I myself have never seen one except in pictures and since my collecting aim is to have a sword from roughly every period (I’ll have to get a late Kamakura early Nanbokucho one as it is unlikely I can get more than one, if I ever can!), it will probably the last item in my collection. There is a thread in auctions I think by Big showing the sword of the year. I’ve looked at it and I’m sure it is a highly different thing in hand, but I can’t say I was that impressed. I guess you can only judge their beauty in hand. What I actually mean is the beginner won’t likely know what he is getting. Most likely, he’ll get a WW2 sword, or, if he is lucky, a Shinto sword. But does it really matter? Even if he had a Masamune in hand, without knowledge, would he be able to learn anything from it? Any sword will do for a beginner. If he is just the casual buyer, he’ll have his sword, be happy and boast at dinners with guests that his NCO sword is the actual Honjo Masamune. The guy who is interested, well, that’s another matter. He’ll learn from the mistake (I did!) and if is here to learn, he will, no matter what his original purchase was. The sword is the sparkle the will ignite the mesh of knowledge. The way will be tortuous, but he’ll learn at his own rate. Then there’s the realization we can’t all be Darcy or Paul Bowman. We all have limitation, some natural, some because of financial means some because we don’t have a mentor or access to a club. We aren’t all equal before knowledge but what matters is we progress. Wherever we start, the important thing is to go up, and if you’re passionate enough, it is sure to happen. Mistakes are also necessary. It’s part of the learning curve. So, yes, in an ideal world, the newbie will get a sword he can learn from, but even if he just has a NCO sword, he’ll realize what he has and be ready for the next step.

A very interesting article, Paul, as all of your other ones, and an interesting discussion too. The thing is, you place yourself in the position of a collector of Nihonto as we consider it in its usual way. Since I’ve started collecting, more than 20 years ago, I’ve often questioned myself as to what sort of collector I was, and I think I’ve only found out when I subscribed to this board a year ago. Of course, I started with a WW2 sword which, like yourself tried as hard as I could to convince myself it was some late Shinshinto mumei Mino work (hey, there wasn’t any stamp!) but I was wrong of course! I wanted it to be a Samurai sword! I’d read books, and of course , nihonto collectors tend to look with a condescending way at WW2, blades, so that was my go-to attitude too. My next swords were real samurai swords, not that WW2 crap! ... then I came here. After some time pinching my nose at this section, I realized it was a very active one, so surely, if it was this active, there had to be a reason. So I took a glance... and became fascinated with this broad new world! At the same time, it made me realize what sort of collector I was. I would dévide our community in several types of people: 1- the pure Nihonto collector. Has a tendency to think that nothing valuable was made after Nanbokucho. I’d like to be that guy, but let’s face it, it takes money, a lot more than I’ll ever had. Those guys are (?) the elite of the collectors. Sword is first and foremost art and an investment. 2- the poor-man’s collector. I’m partly that guy. I try to get the best in the range I can afford. My collection, though, will always be subpar. 3- the historian. That’s the guy I am. I realize that I don’t care if my sword is long enough, suriage or not, even Gimei. The important part, is some guys, born a very long time ago, have passed down for generations something they considered their heirloom. I consider it my duty to do the same, whatever the time period. WW2 swords deserve as much respect because they are history. Those swords, from all eras, are the witness of a time passed. If only they could talk! 4- the militaria collector. Generally focused on the 20th centuries conflicts, he’ll collect Japanese swords, but not just that. Those collectors are often as passionate as Nihonto collectors and this passion is often linked to family history. I respect that choice 5- the others. The tosogu, armor, mundane object collectors. I won’t say much about them as I don’t know those domains enough. My point? I don’t know which is the best way to start a collection. If your collection isn’t focused, any point is a good point of entry. Once you know what type of collector you are, then you can specialize and learn more, but dabbling in everything isn’t a bad thing either. Japanese sword collecting is a huge and fascinating world, it mingles people of different origins, different purposes, different social or educational background but this is what makes it so interesting: we learn from the knowledge and specialties of others. I’m truly grateful to all the people I’ve met and will probably meet here. Each, in their own way, broadens my horizon and makes my world more full everyday!

In fact, what is the most harmful I think is the number of swords sold for a few bucks and which have welded rat tails as a nakago. Those stuff are nightmarishly dangerous and so cheap that kids can buy them and get seriously hurt. And of course, there’s also tha shady practice of selling 1045 steel swords claiming they’re L6 Bainite, but all in all, I’ve found that the best cutters, closest to the real deal, are actually 1060. They’re just hard enough to cut well and soft enough not to shatter. Once we’ve thrown aside the unscrupulous dealers, I think that the remaining ones can produce good stuff. Hanwei has been mentioned, but I’ve seen swords by a brand called YariNoHanzo that make some really good stuff too. Of course, we’re veering from the original intent of this thread. Truth is, as long as there is a market, there will be people taking advantage of others. You’ve just got not to go blindly and know what you actually buy.

I would truly disagree that Chinese swords are bad. Yes, they aren't accurate copies and if you know a bit about Nihonto, you spot them easy. Bu t for the layman, they aren't so easy to make out, proof being the numerous threads that florish on this board to ask whether such or such sword is genuine. Actually, I consider Chinese swords excellent for their purpose. They are aimed at martial artists or collectors on a budget that want something close to the real deal without having to spend a fortune. Some are quite good and beautiful and although devoid of historical value, they aren't worse in their quality or construction than a vintage sword. They have a market and they are designed for that market. Now, the real issue isn't crappiness or reproduction, but the unscrupulous attitude of some sellers that try to pass them for what they aren't. But in terms of quality, never forget places such as Lonquan have been forging for centuries. It may be on an industrial scale, but what production isn't industrial these days? Showato were industrial too, disliked by many collectors for that, but it never prevented them to find their place in history and their collector's niche too. I wouldn't be surprised it one day, Chinese Katana get more respect too. Granted, it will take a verrrrrrry long time before we see that.

Cool, thanks Shannon!

Photos of the blade please? I have a sudden interest in Shimada den stuff!

An advice for Europeans! Never connect with your regional eBay but with eBay.com. There, nothing is blocked!

Could also be something with age, made to look Japanese, on one of the many islands. Not Japanese though. They even got the ito wrapping wrong.

#MeToo! I mean, so do I!

Well, the man who wounded Ieyasu’s father certainly did it because of the spirit! He was dead drunk! (And after that, just dead! )

And I don’t read Japanese, so I could only help with stupid humor!

Nice! This must fetch a fortune!

Best solution? Sell the wife! joking aside, nice collection, Dan!

And the same patina too it seems. Then, I should venture a guess that the swords Komonjo sells as gendai swords aren’t made by the same people making the fake Mantetsu. Two different providers, same fake results.

As a complete atheist, I can’t believe in gods, ghosts, spirits or magic, but I can recognize the fact that people who made and carried them did, and as such, owe respect to their beliefs and memory. But guys, 21st century here! Swords are a feat of craftsmanship, but in the end, they are the result of metallurgic skills and superior craftsmanship ability, not magic. In the end, it’s just metal. It is well known Muramasa was also used as a political tool and the Tokugawa family had Muramasa’s in their collection. Yet, I agree that these swords must have seen some gruesome stuff, and let’s face it, that’s also part of their twisted appeal. Sometimes, I wish I’d meet those who’ve owned them before me, listen to their tale and tell them to be relieved, that their precious sword is in loving, caring hands.

Nice gunto, and the price is awesome!

@Stephen: I think the mei is close enough to fool anyone. My greatest suspicion, at first sight, were the togishi marks. Never seen them on Mantetsu I think, unless, of course, it’s been polished after the war. @Bruce: strangely enough, I don’t think it’s a Komonjo blade. I often look at them (I, for one, believe they are truly Japanese, but iaito with Gimei signatures, the polish being a second class polish) and they don’t show those polisher’s marks. I believe this blade is a fake Mantetsu but a real Japanese mumei blade on which a fake mei was engraved because Mantetsu are getting more and more popular. To be honest, if the price stays low as it is now, it could be a nice package.

Supermarket supply note... just joking, but imagine how funny that would be!

However, the guys rating seems pretty good!

Got it! I thought it was to make it look like a Kamakura sori!

I haven’t my papers for the date, what is it supposed to be? MU corresponds to 1942 from memory. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Mantetsu with polisher’s barcode signature. At the very least, it’s been repolished. and if 42 is correct, they still had Koa Isshin in the mei. Now I’m doing this from memory, so might be wrong.

The paint could be remnants from numbers used on the assembly line, that’s frequent. If there is a stamp, you’ll find it generally above the signature. It’s very hard to say anything from the provided pictures to be fair. The two holes are a bit weird on a WW2 sword, but the chippy nature of the signature is typical of the WW2´s way of signing swords.