Bruce Pennington

Interesting observation. There was definitely a transition. Here are the MRS gunto I have on file 1938 N156 (only the SMR logo) 1944 Se 1029 Ren at top of nakago 1944 Se 1143 Ren at top 1944 Se 1310 Ren at top 1944 Se 2430 連工 1944 Se 2575 連工 1944 Su 10 連工 1944 (?) 199 連工 1945 い 142 (not viewed, no full photo) 1945 い 1170 no stamps, full views

I have seen a couple of these lately. Hard to know if they are post-war or late-war. They are always in the low-quality wooden saya made for leather cover.

Photos added for later when the link goes dead:

For the vast majority of us who don't read Japanese, what Trystan is showing us is a discussion Ohmura had on that link about the Mantetsu operation. Of the Ren stamp, Ohmura states: Nanman Army Arsenal inspection mark "Nan". inspection mark "Nan".※ Ren stamp: Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory inspection mark. "Ren" Ohmura's discussion: "For Nanman Army Arsenal, organization was determined in August,1938. It had the site of about 9.917 K㎡ in Wenguantun of the Mukden suburbs. And 12,000 persons in all belonged the military man and the army civilian employee to this arsenal. And thousands of Manchu operatives worked. Nanman Arsenal was included in Kantō-Gun and turned into Kantō-Gun Arsenal in April, 1945. From the spring of 1943, an officer's Guntō was made from Nanman Arsenal and Nanman Arsenal Dalian Factory. The blade with the stamp of "Nan" and "Ren" receives the impression that Nanman Army Arsenal made with Mantetsu's introduction of technological know-hows uniquely. However, probably, these blades were dedicated by Nanman Arsenal with semimanufactured goods from Mantetsu, when they were guessed from the Mei of "Mantetsu Kore o Tanzō". The truth is still a mystery. " So, at the end, even Ohmura was uncertain of the implications. My first question is - what is meant by "Nanman Army Arsenal Dalian Factory"? The Nanman Army Arsenal was not located in Dalian. SMR was. So, if they are calling the SMR operation at Dalian a Nanman factory, then the Ren stamped blades were made by SMR not Nanman arsenal. As to Nanman making blades, we know for a fact that they were polishing blades at Nanman in '44 and '45. Is that because they were making the blades there, or because SMR was sending them unfinished blades as they were doing for Tokyo 1st Arnsenal? Not all '43 and '44 blades have the stamps. Why? Were the non-stamped blades made at SMR and the stamped ones at Nanman? Another factor is that the Nan-stamped blades were all in '43 and the first two lines of '44, then they stop, and the Ren stamp appears after that: If the Ren-stamped blades were made in Dalian (SMR), why did the Nanman arsenal (Nan stamps) stop? In the end we may find that Ohmura's hypothesis is correct and logical explanations will appear answering the questions. But for now, my speculative opinion is that SMR was making blades the whole time. In '43, they taught Nanman smiths how to make Mantetsu blades and their production enhanced the quotas required of SMR. The Army likely assigned Nanman Arsenal supervisory authority over the whole SMR operation and the Nan stamp was in use. By '44, they established an office to specifically oversee the Dalian factory, hence the Ren stamp. It still doesn't explain why the Nan stamp disappeared after the appearance of the Ren stamp though. So, like Ohmura said, it's still a mystery to me.

Interesting! I was thinking it was something along that line. They did a good job with the modification, but of course it was a swordsmith that did it.

Sesko shows a father and son, don't know how to tell which one yours was made by:

Hi Oliver! One of the translation magicians will give you a full breakdown of the mei (signature). I'm jumping in to ask for a couple of shots of the full "naked" blade, and pics of the fittings. From the edges of a couple of these it looks like you've got one of the fairly rare canvas-covered scabbards.

This mark is the strangest thing. It almost looks like the original nakago had been cut off, and another added. Yet if so, it was done before the kiku and mei. The kiku is right one line on the other side.

Mark, Can you tell if the saya was intentionally darkened? or is that just age/oxidation?

The offset machi is typical for Chinese work. It's normal on NCO 95s, but not officer swords. Even the island swords get that one right. So, COULD be an island made sword, but I'd lean toward Chinese.

Just for clarification, I’m going to boil the linseed oil first and then mix it with the white spirits? Never mind! I found it, it’s called “boiled linseed oil”.

Here's one from an old post - Inherited Sword - owned by @wgt63

Ok, last one and I'll stop, but I found one with the same mei. I'm studying the chrysanthemums and it's amazing how many nobuyoshi blades are on NMB.

The collecting world has a name for the string-wrapping, braiding, thing G.I.s and sailors did onboard the ship, lots of time on their hands. A few examples on NMB of it. There were many white, cloth wrapped tsuka done by the Japanese. Can't say I've seen examples of them doing the saya. But remember - "Never say never, nor always, with gunto".

Mantetsu Sword Serial Numbers (4.2) A I U E O KA KI KU KE KO SA Shi SU SE SO TA CHI TSU TE TO NA NI NU NE NO HA HI FU HE HO MA MI MU ME MO YA YI YU YE YO RA RI RU RE RO WA WI WU WE WO Alpha Numeric Missing Kanji 1937 1938 C 17-S C 30-S H 14-A H 20-A M 61-A N 1-W N 71-W N 156-W N 182-W N 205-W N 206-W N 356-W N 377-W N 403-W N 408-W Unkn-S 1939 I 376-S I 466-S NI 57-A NI 190-A NI 679-W HA 24-A HO 123-W HO 125-W RO 75-S RO 270-S N 423-S N 574-S V 18-S V 33-S W 23- S W 38-S ? 122-W NoNmr-S NoNmr-W 1940 CHI 61-S CHI 66-S CHI 104-S CHI 128-S CHI 356-S CHI 801-? to 41-S to 374-S to 450-S to 562-S to 630-S to 729-S NU 182-S NU 2XX-S NU 389-S NU 407-S NU 503-A NU 608-A NU 65?-A HO 546-S RI108-S RI 110-S RI 328-S RI 404-S RI 415-S RI 488-S RI 560-S RU 16-A RU 163-A RU 199-A WA 20-S WA 33-A (waki) WA 73-A (waki) WA1840A Wo 433-S ? 57-A 1941 KA 89-S KA 228-S KA 232-S KA 236-S KA 238-S KA 275-S KA 353-S KA 405-S SO 66-S SO 185-S SO 482-S SO 564-S TA 181-S TA 287-S TA 298-S TA 277-S TA 305-S TA 313-S TA 336-S TSU 198-S TSU 254-S TSU 573-S TSU 575-S TSU 651-S NA 5-S NA 124-S NA 184-S NA 232-S NA 354-S NA 377-S NA 484-S NE 2-S NE 144-S NE 347-S NE 384-S NE 396-S NE 401-S NE 414-S YO 11 YO 57-S YO 122-S YO 150-S YO 234 YO 349-S YO 350-S YO 352-S RE 6-S RE 153-S RE 193-S RE 413-S RE 476-S WA 6 -S WA 134-S WA 158-S WA 238-S WA 638-S ? 218 1942 U 20-S U 70-S U 99-S U 255-S U 357-S U 414-S U 481-S U 593-S U 1593-S Ku 327-A Ku 471-A Ku 466-A Ku 878-A Ku 897-A Ku1020a Ku1087a Ku1226a NO 34-S NO 273-S NO 430-S NO 493-S NO 533-S Mu 87-S Mu 89-S Mu555-S Mu595-S Mu637-S Mu705-S Ma 77-A Ma 78-A YA 72-A YA 79-A YA 201-A YA 246-W YA 350-A YA 417-A YA 475-A YA 505-A YA 622-A YA 623-A YA 736-A YA 957-A YA1048-A RA 7(?)-S RA 341-S RA 820-S RA 823-S RA 934-S RA 984-S RA1030-S RA1071-S RA1196-S RA 1256-S RA 1333-S RA 1356-S ? 26-S ? 345-S ? 744-S 1943 A 17-S A 65-S A 105-S E 537-S KI 122-S KI 144-S KI 347-S KI 536-S KE 731-S KE 583-S KE 805-S KO 115-S SA 1-S SA 52-S SA 361-S SA 459-S SA 520-S Shi 304-S TE 71-S TE 224-S TE 284-S TE 305-S TE 337-S TE 486-S TE 567-S TE 595-S TE 699-S TE 801-S TE 835-S HI 22-S HI 41-S HI 153-S HI 226-S HI 591-S FU 48-S FU 106-S FU 624-S FU 757-S FU 758-S FU 795-S FU1008-S FU1272-S FU 960-S FU 1196 FU 1385-S Ma360-S Ma373-S Ma374-S Ma381-S Ma538-S MI 206-S MI 288-S MI 505-S ME 19-S ME 87-S YU 115-S YU 209-S YU 367-S YU 432-S YU 479-S YU 543-S WE 299-S WE 494-S ? 76 ?276 ? 330-S ?361 ?624-S KA 242-S A 601-S 1944 (I) 526-S (I)1644-S SU 10-S SU 18-S SU 219-S SU 273-S SE 1029-S SE 1066-S SE 1143-S SE 1225-S SE 1251-S SE 1293-S SE 1310-S SE 2409-S SE 2430-S SE 2575-S SE 2596-S SE 2767-S HI 1155-S Mo104-S Mo228-S Mo799-S ? 45 ?199 SU 615-S 1945 I 28 i 67-S i 90-S I 142 i 213-S i 289-S i 449-S i 622-S i 1170 Unkn year CHI 475 FU 594 MA 313 YA 72 RA 296 · Note: ALL CAPS – KATAKANA; lower case – hiragana. · The seasons are abbreviated as indicated below. -S Spring -R Summer -A Autumn -W Winter 春 haru Spring 夏 natsu Summer 秋 aki Autumn 冬 fuyu Winter

Still might get some clarification from Nick on the meaning of the charted rows.

Ok, I think I'm getting a more clear picture of your question. I thought you were saying that there was a kaigunto listed on the documents as both privately owned and government property. I cannot read the page, so I'm going by your description. Are you saying there is a row for privately owned, and a row for government property, and there are numbers of kaigunto in the "government property" row? If so, I'm betting they are classifying arsenal stamped blades, like the one you posted, as "government" blades and ancestral, civil, swords as "privately owned." Sounds like whomever made the chart didn't really know how it worked for officer gunto.

Thanks Trystan! I actually have it's "sister" Ma 77 on file:

You might try running this by Nick Komiya. He's the one that uncovered the Army's reg that permitted private purchase of Type 95s. Maybe you'll tickle his curiosity and get him to do some more digging. On the face of it, I have never heard of "government property" officer swords of either Army or Navy. There were arsenal-made gunto in both services, so could this possibly be referring to a gunto bought directly from the arsenal, rather than from the officers club?

You're killin' me @Kolekt-To Geoff!

Here's a comparison of a few other Nobuyoshi with kiku. You'll see the kiku varies with each one, so that isn't a good gauge to go by. Guys who study smith mei might have a better way to tell if it's legit.

That's really cool, Bruno, thanks for posting it! I've never seen a reg on what was allowed for the civil blades refitted for service. The vast variety of combinations lends me to believe there wasn't a set standard, though. Fuller's book shows some creative home-made fittings on various gunto, this would be a nice addition to his section! A great many we see on the market still have the leather cover, so it is possible there were some with the slots, but simply covered up.

You've got quite a fan club there in Fremantle if you see this often, and rightfully so!

Added a shot of the koiguchi. That's a first for me, too. Clearly a custom gunto.

@sechan Steve, Could I get a clear, closer shot of that red paint in the haikan (belt loop). I've seen 1 or 2 like this lately, and it's starting to look like a popular wartime modification.