Some help with translation of Mei and info on smith please

[markturner]

Hi, I have recently acquired a nice ( I think so anyway!) wakizashi, attributed to Fujiwara kunitsuna approx 1661

 

Firstly what does "sagami no kami" mean? Is it a title ( I googled and found "Iga (no) Kami" is a title , so presumed similar? )

 

I also searched here and found 2 posts that seem to be referring to the same smith, here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=407&hilit=fujiwara+kunitsuna

 

I also searched and found this: http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss317.htm and this: http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss368.htm Is it the same smith? My hamon looks dissimilar, but interestingly, the small knife (sorry cant think of the correct term !) that came with mine has the same horses motif.

 

I will post up some pictures of the Mei and blade as soon as I get home

 

Thanks, Mark

[John A Stuart]

A title yes. Sagami no kuni is the same province as Soshu. John

[Ken-Hawaii]

Mark, the small knife is called a ko-gatana.

 

Ken

[runagmc]

'no Kami' means 'cheif of'.... and Sagami was the name of a province, so... 'Sagami no Kami' means 'cheif of Sagami province'. These types of honorary titles became very common in the Shinto era...

[John A Stuart]

守 More like defender or guardian. John

[Nobody]

FYI; 守 (Kami)

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokushi_(official)

[markturner]

OK, I have some pictures here:

 

Sorry for posting just a link, but despite me resizing all the photos to 1280 x 960, it wont let me post them says they cant be more than 1200 pixels wide...... which they are not..... anyway, hopefully you can see from the direct link to the album.

 

http://s499.photobucket.com/albums/rr35 ... e/Nihonto/

 

 

Hopefully you can see the mei properly, I have also included pictures of the Koshirae and Ko-gatana ( thanks Ken!), so if any of you could confirm the smith and provide and information from looking at the blade, hamon etc. Any comments and opinions on the sword welcome as well.

 

many thanks, Mark

[Brian]

Sorry for posting just a link, but despite me resizing all the photos to 1280 x 960, it wont let me post them says they cant be more than 1200 pixels wide...... which they are not.....

Mark,

Maybe I am reading this wrong...but I can confirm that 1280 pixels is indeed more than 1200

 

Brian

[falconj]

Mark,

any chance of a photo of the tang without your thumb covering the important 'end' bit of the tang , I have a blade signed the same but need to compare the nakago-jiri and the yasuri before commenting further

many thanks

regards

John

[markturner]

Ahem... indeed, I was reading the sizes the wrong way around..apologies for my stupidity..!!

 

so here are the pictures, first without thumb, hopefully complete enough to see the shape..?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and here is a picture of the Mei on the Kunistuna sword I linked in the OP, it looks very similar to me, but I am no expert!:

 

 

 

I promise to engage brain before typing in future...

 

What does the smaller inscription on the reverse side of the tang say please? Is that the date?

 

Thanks, mark

[Tokaido]

What does the smaller inscription on the reverse side of the tang say please? Is that the date?

Thanks, mark

 

Hello Mark,

it is no date, sorry, but reads 'Echizen ju', which means 'living in Echizen (Province)'.

So it is perhaps a smith of the Echizen Shimosaka School, although the oshigata in the 'Shinto Taikan' shows a little different writing (smaler, less confident written kanji).

Unfortunately the nakago jiri of the oshigata is not reproduced in the taikan

 

BTW: there were three of these Kunitsuna's swords sold by Aoi Art during 2009-2010

 

Greetings

Andreas

[Curran]

Nice habaki.

Interesting fuchi-kashira. Is the fuchi signed?

[falconj]

Unfortunately the nakago jiri of the oshigata is not reproduced in the taikan

it is some more information for me, that I did not have!

thanks anyway for putting that up

nice try, Andreas

regards

John

[markturner]

Hi, so I can say from study that my sword has several very similar traits to the second wakizashi I linked from aio art, the saya is the same shape with rounded end, the go katana is nearly the same, the Mei seems the same and the area the same. The shape of the blade is very nearly identical as well. The only thing that stands out as different to me, is the hamon.

 

Would you learned people say that the sword is the same smith? If so, then that is very useful for me, as there seems to be lots of information I can glean from the description etc given by aio art.

 

Would any you please also be so kind to describe and comment on the hamon and jigare of my sword and tell me what you think of it please? Curran, I to very much liked the fuchi-kashira, one of the big reasons for me buying it. I have not been able to see inside the fuchi to see if it is signed. Are they unusual in style?

 

many thanks!

 

Mark

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Nakagojiri matches but the ji Kuni and Tsuna are engraved another way.

[markturner]

Thanks Jacques, what does this tell you then? The nakagojiri is the shape of the tang, yes? the ji kuni and tsuna are the characters of the Mei ? So what does this mean?

cheers, Mark

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The nakagojiri is the end (bottom) of the nakago. About Kuni and Tsuna that can say two things: first, the smith has drastically changed his manner of signing; second, the signature is false.

[markturner]

Hi Jacques, in that case, the false signature is on my sword, (As the other sword had papered )yes? Comparing them carefully, I do notice differences in the way the kanji are drawn on each. Do you think that is the case? Is it a point to fake a signature of a relatively minor smith? What do you think the hamon and other characteristics of the sword are telling you? It would be good to know wether or not I have got myself a good sword or a lemon..

 

thanks, Mark

[Curran]

fuchi-kashira:

 

Design is unusual, but not unknown. I forget the term for them. Sometimes they are two tone, or done in a way where the deep carving reveals mokume layers.

Signature would be on the outer (public) face of the fuchi when the tsuka is taken off the nakago.

 

It is most likely they are unsigned, but I figured I would ask.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Hi Jacques, in that case, the false signature is on my sword, (As the other sword had papered )yes? Comparing them carefully, I do notice differences in the way the kanji are drawn on each. Do you think that is the case? Is it a point to fake a signature of a relatively minor smith? What do you think the hamon and other characteristics of the sword are telling you? It would be good to know wether or not I have got myself a good sword or a lemon..

 

thanks, Mark

 

 

From what i can see on your pictures it seems to me the hamon is too regular compared with those i've seen . If you google :" Sagami no kami Fujiwara Kunitsuna", you will find some examples of papered swords, and you will make your own opinion.

[Shugyosha]

Sorry,

 

I've worked it out now. Duh.

 

John

 

Refers to what I thought was a previous post but which it doesn't look like I actually posted. Please ignore.

[markturner]

Hi Jacques, I have done some googling, if you notice, in the original post I linked 2 swords I found by doing just that. My comparison of mine with those was what initiated my post, I could see differences, but being a rank amateur, did not know what they signified.

 

I was hoping that being knowledgeable enthusiasts, you could answer my queries. I have books I have brought and am studying and I have some swords, already I know much more than when I started, which was zero, but I am not going to be able to teach myself "the knowledge" overnight. I see my hamon differs, but know not what this tells me. I see other similarities, but again, dont know what they mean. I just need a little help here...

 

So, I know the signature on my sword is not right, its "gimei"...I know the fittings are unusual, I also now now what "sagama no kami" means - apart from that, I have no idea wether the sword is good , bad or indifferent. Opinions on merit, value and worthiness are requested so I can decide whether to keep it or not or go back to my friend and renegotiate. I like the sword, but if its not what it is supposed to be, I would like to know.

 

It's like being in class, you never learn unless you ask the teacher questions. Hopefully they get answered.

 

yours, respectfully but a little frustratedly,

 

Mark

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Mark,

Even if the signature is wrong (gimei) this can still be a nice sword; how nice is something that's difficult to tell from pictures alone. Gimei does not automatically doom the sword to a scrap heap.

Your frustration stems from your lack of experience and knowledge. We've all been there and, like you, we wished someone would give us the answer. It isn't that simple, though. We don't know if you paid too much and we don't know if you should return the sword.

The best I can tell you is to study more.

Grey

[falconj]

Hi Mark, Jacques, and All,

I think Jacques may be right :-

" About Kuni and Tsuna that can say two things: first, the smith has drastically changed his manner of signing; second, the signature is false."

I to have a sword that is signed 'echizen ju sagami no kami fujiwara kunitsuna' but with the same suspect 'kuni' and 'tsuna'

mine is also signed with another smith's name 'izumi no kami fujiwara kunihiro' on the other side of the tang ( ura-mei ? )

( so maybe a joint smith signing, it was thought it maybe father and son)

however my sword was pink slipped at my last shinsa for 'gimei' signature and the known kunitsuna's nakago-jiri and yasuri being different to mine,

I think that maybe your sword was signed by the same smith as mine as the 'kuni' and 'tsuna' are signed in similar style.

I also think if you like the sword then that is fine

please see attached

 

as always I may be wrong

 

regards

John

[runagmc]

Hey Mark,

Making a firm judgement on the market value of a Japanese sword is very difficult in general, and even more so when trying to do so by pictures. It's commonly said that a sword is worth what someone will pay for it. This is of no help to someone buying a sword, but that's just the way it is. Like Grey said, we don't know what you paid and we don't have the luxury of viewing the sword in hand.

 

With your sword, it doesn't look like it's going to be possible for the forum to give a firm judgement on it's authenticity. In this case, I think you have to assume your sword is gimei until you have a shinsa panel confirm otherwise.

 

That being said, it appears to be a well made Japanese sword that looks to me to be 2 to 4 hundred years old... and personally I would lean more towards the 1600's. The mounts look like good quality as well.

 

I hesitate to even say this, but if I were buying this sword/koshirae, and I was considering it gimei (with the possibility of having the mei removed), I would look for a conservative price around $1500-$2500. That doesn't mean that's what it's worth, that just means that's what it would be worth to me... and I only put my head on the chopping block by saying this to try to relieve some of your frustration. Mabey others will be able to agree or disagree with that price range, and you can use those opinions to help you make a decision.

[markturner]

Hi Guys, thank you very much, that's really helpful. John, your Mei does look the very same as mine. Is the rest of the sword similar? I paid £2300 for the sword, if that helps to quantify its value and wether I have paid much more for it than I should have.

 

Thanks again for all the useful advice,

 

regards, Mark

[pcfarrar]

I paid £2300 for the sword, if that helps to quantify its value and wether I have paid much more for it than I should have.

 

Did you buy the sword from a dealer or private collector?

[falconj]

Hi Mark,

I paid quite a lot more than that for mine!

"I paid £2300 for the sword"

so if you are happy with it, great sit back and enjoy it!

I know that my blade has been 'pinked' but I still really like it and enjoy it,

my blade 'hamon' is nothing like yours and but you never know!

one day, just maybe one day, someone might come out and say, 'gee'

here is a 'kunitsuna' smith signing like this that we did not know about!!!!!!!!!

don't hold your breath, just enjoy it, looks good to me!

regards

John

[drbvac]

Ain't the collection of Nihonto fun ??

 

You can always never be absoluteley uncertain about nothing or anything in the presence of concrete misinformation or facts stated as truth that you can not possibly discern on your own = other than " gee I kinda like the look of that!" :D