Is this Soten?

[cdrcm12]

A recent auction purchase that I took a chance on as it was described in the catalogue as 'A modern reproduction of a late 19thC Japanese cast metal tsuba'. I had studied the auctioneers pictures and I was pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy as I could see nunome-zogan, the sekigane around the seppa dai and hitsu ana looked like good copper inserts, the figures on the bridge looked typical of ones I have seen on other tsuba and it appeared to come with an old higher spec custom box.

 

I'm no expert here and I may be totally wrong but now I have it in hand it looks authentic?

 

Dimensions:

Height 85.5mm

Width 83.0mm

Seppa dai 5.1mm

Mimi with gold fukurin 5.2mm

 

There's a few questions if you don't mind:

The hitsu ana seem unusual for Soten compared to others I have looked at, is it Soten or in the style of?

It doesn't look to have been mounted, and again the large sekigane for the hitsu ana I've not seen before, is this unusual?

Having looked at Japanese paintings on-line to try determine the scene or tale it represents nothing jumps out with three travellers/sages admiring the mountain view with shrine/temple in the distance, any thoughts or is it just a nice scene?

 

Thanks for looking and welcome any feedback.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Not SOTEN and not a cast copy, I believe. Could have some TAKADA influence.

[thutson]

Looks to be an authentic tsuba and not a modern cast copy. I agree with Jean, it doesnt look like typical Soten school work.

[Geraint]

Aaaahhhh!  Methinks you did well with that one Colin.  I agree with what has already been said, not cast and not Soten, but would love to know more from Jean about the Takada suggestion.

 

All the best.

[cdrcm12]

Thanks all.

 

There was just that nagging seed of doubt from the auctioneers description.

 

Will look into Takada school.

 

Geraint,

I think the 'modern reproduction' may be put people off from the auction, sometimes luck goes your way as well!

[Curran]

4 minutes ago, cdrcm12 said:

Thanks all.

 

There was just that nagging seed of doubt from the auctioneers description.

 

Will look into Takada school.

 

Geraint,

I think the 'modern reproduction' may be put people off from the auction, sometimes luck goes your way as well!

 

My first thoughts were Jakushi(?) https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1246932497437445&set=pb.100063621186223.-2207520000

or Hizen (?) .  

      This to say:  Probably from a Kyushu based school.

[Geraint]

I saw the auction but had my eye on other things.  My first thought was Jakushi but I have little understanding of the Takada school with regard to tsuba.  

Whatever it turns out to be it's a very nice tsyba.

 

All the best.

[Lewis B]

A very attractive tsuba. 

[cdrcm12]

Thanks Lewis and Curran,

 

To your point on Jakushi, from Bob Haynes site. The theme is similar, the write up points to the influence of Chinese Nanga Literati paintings as a source of inspiration for Jakushi artists.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Colin,

I noticed you may have had a question about your tsuba and its iron makeup in your initial post.

Although many members have stated their opinions.

If you still have a question about it maybe you can send it to OceanoNox?

He advised me on another thread that he would be willing to do an analysis to determine the iron makeup of a tsuba.

I quote part of that post below (with some non-relevant areas of the post eliminated and indicated by “….”  marks)-

“…. Or send them to me to do it. I have access to X-ray, electronic microscope with chemical analysis, and micro-hardness (not quite non-invasive, but still considered relatively non-destructive, if you can bear a barely visible indent) ….”.

“I am doing it. I had an idea about tsuba research, and my students and I are doing the calculations and experiments to see it through. It's not cutting edge, it's probably not very noteworthy, but we are doing what's necessary to find out if we are right or not.”

Maybe he and his students can help you to make a final determination about your tsuba?

I mean it may be worth a try?

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Not really relevant to the discussion but if you try a Google image search you might find four "links" - none of which are real and all end in a nonexisting site.   WHY?

 

I agree not Soten - first big thing with the majority of Soten, is they like to advertise the fact with a mei - even the fake ones. I would have said Jakushi, except for the unusual hitsu and the height/depth of the carving as well as inlay, Jakushi do "overlay" as far as I know [which is not much ].     Takada I will give it a look.

 

[Steves87]

Very interesting!

I can see crossovers between both Jakushi and Soten for sure... Like the trees are very much Jakushi style, as with the nunome zogan on the hill/mountains. The waves carvings and the humanoid figures are a lot more Soten/Hikone style, in my opinion. A few examples showing relatable features that I can give are below. Ill be watching this thread closely!

[Brian]

9 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello Colin,

I noticed you may have had a question about your tsuba and its iron makeup in your initial post.

Although many members have stated their opinions.

If you still have a question about it maybe you can send it to OceanoNox?

He advised me on another thread that he would be willing to do an analysis to determine the iron makeup of a tsuba.

I quote part of that post below (with some non-relevant areas of the post eliminated and indicated by “….”  marks)-

“…. Or send them to me to do it. I have access to X-ray, electronic microscope with chemical analysis, and micro-hardness (not quite non-invasive, but still considered relatively non-destructive, if you can bear a barely visible indent) ….”.

“I am doing it. I had an idea about tsuba research, and my students and I are doing the calculations and experiments to see it through. It's not cutting edge, it's probably not very noteworthy, but we are doing what's necessary to find out if we are right or not.”

Maybe he and his students can help you to make a final determination about your tsuba?

I mean it may be worth a try?

Just my opinion.

 

 

There you go again. Everyone agrees there is nothing cast about this. But you pop up and persist with some idiotic theory in spite of the fact that the only people who made the claim are an ignorant auctioneer. And you wonder why you get hounded. Sit back down. There is nothing cast about this tsuba, and if you knew much about tsuba, you would see it.

[Spartancrest]

But Brian, Dan never even mentioned CAST TSUBA!

From Colin's original post  'A modern reproduction of a late 19thC Japanese cast metal tsuba'. How I read this is the tsuba was based on a cast tsuba - not that this is a cast tsuba. That is, if the auctioneer knows where to place commas or has a grasp of punctuation marks [none of which are evident]!

 

Something the millennials have come up with:

[Shugyosha]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

There you go again. Everyone agrees there is nothing cast about this. But you pop up and persist with some idiotic theory in spite of the fact that the only people who made the claim are an ignorant auctioneer. And you wonder why you get hounded. Sit back down. There is nothing cast about this tsuba, and if you knew much about tsuba, you would see it.

 

When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[Matsunoki]

14 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

I noticed you may have had a question about your tsuba and its iron makeup in your initial post.

I have read the original post a few times now and I cannot see where Colin has had a question about it’s iron makeup.

Colin was rightly confident that it was genuine and this has been confirmed  by several members.

Why on earth would he want to subject it to any tests?

What are you expecting such tests to reveal?

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Colin H for being so kind and refraining from belittleing, berating, and ridiculing me.

 

Well, I evidently see different things in the original post then you.

 

In his original post Colin T initially stated-

 

"A recent auction purchase that I took a chance on as it was described in the catalogue as 'A modern reproduction of a late 19thC Japanese cast metal tsuba'. I had studied the auctioneers pictures and I was pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy as I could see nunome-zogan, the sekigane around the seppa dai and hitsu ana looked like good copper inserts, the figures on the bridge looked typical of ones I have seen on other tsuba and it appeared to come with an old higher spec custom box.

 

I'm no expert here and I may be totally wrong but now I have it in hand it looks authentic?"

 

I was just tryiing to help him out to possibly determine and assist him with his "pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy" and "it looks authentic?".

 

I think that testing the tsuba would help determine if the iron content is an old or new mixture.

 

Anyway, thanks for your kindness.

 

Now let the belittleing, beratting, and ridiculing continue (as I am sure it will !).

[Spartancrest]

21 hours ago, cdrcm12 said:

it doesn't look to have been mounted, and again the large sekigane for the hitsu ana I've not seen before, is this unusual?

It does look to have been mounted, the sekigane show an imprint of the blade being inserted. Also the ategane 'repair' to the hitsu would suggest the sides of the seppa-dai/hitsu have been previously cut into, to fit a koshirae with narrow fitting kogai and kozuka and the guard was later changed to fit another saya or koshirae assembly. Most repairs like this try to match the seppa-dai colour [but not always] to make the repair less visable. I will try and find some examples tomorrow my time [after midnight now for me ]

[Matsunoki]

5 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

I think that testing the tsuba would help determine if the iron content is an old or new mixture

Are there any statistical records of the metalurgical constituents of iron tsuba from different periods?

[Matsunoki]

Anyone else wonder if those fancy hitsu are later “enlargements”. They do seem to cut into the design somewhat?

[cdrcm12]

25 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

It does look to have been mounted, the sekigane show an imprint of the blade being inserted. Also the ategane 'repair' to the hitsu would suggest the sides of the seppa-dai/hitsu have been previously cut into, to fit a koshirae with narrow fitting kogai and kozuka and the guard was later changed to fit another saya or koshirae assembly. Most repairs like this try to match the seppa-dai colour [but not always] to make the repair less visable. I will try and find some examples tomorrow my time [after midnight now for me ]

Thanks Dale, that makes sense. There do seem to be marks on the sekigane that would indicate filling to fit a blade or the movement of the tsuba over a nakago.

 

19 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Anyone else wonder if those fancy hitsu are later “enlargements”. They do seem to cut into the design somewhat?

Colin, I think you may be on to something. It does seem odd that various mountains have been cut off, example on the rear face below at 9 o'clock:

 

May also explain the the uncertainty around the school, if these were normal hitsu-ana would Jakushi attribution be easier.

 

[Matsunoki]

The theme is a Japanese “version” of the classic Chinese subject of scholars/immortals etc gazing at a wonderful often mountainous landscape. Various interpretations linked to a yearning for immortality, wonder at the beauty of nature, desire for man and nature to live in harmony…..that sort of thing. A waterfall is often included (but not here) 
They can often be accompanied by a young male attendant (as here) …….presumably carrying their wine and packed lunch🙂

[Tcat]

The ana appear to be '壷笠' or pot lid shaped. Given that they could be atobori, I wonder what the significance of that may be.

[cdrcm12]

Thanks Alex.

 

I wonder if the owner wanted to refresh it's look, influenced by what was in vogue at the time.

 

It doesn't appear to have been damaged, it's in pretty good condition.

[Spartancrest]

15 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Most repairs like this try to match the seppa-dai colour [but not always] to make the repair less visable.

I thought these two examples [both from raindragon designs] were interesting in that both are signed by the same maker and both have had the seppa-dai cut into and later repaired - but they are not a daisho. Notice the repair is very dark metal that almost blends into the seppa-dai colour.

 

 

and an example of "highlighting" the repair.   Kintsugi (金継ぎ)  is the Japanese art of repairing broken items. Recognising that it is the flaws and “scars” that make you stronger,beautiful and unique. 

Edited Monday at 05:43 AM by Spartancrest
More history

[Exclus1ve]

I believe that the Soten school or its followers are responsible for this. Most likely, the unusual shape of the cutouts is a result of the customer's request. The style and technique of the carving (the waves stand out particularly) are characteristic of Soten.