Juyo Naotane

[Jacques]

3 hours ago, SRDRowson said:

Dedicated to Monsieur Jacques, the bashful and introverted font of all knowledge regarding Nihonto (except, perhaps, for when he’s wrong).

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCyYuLQ7_Ws

 

I don't have to be humble, I know my limits and I study nihonto the same way I studied physics, that is to say very seriously. When I am wrong I admit it, I did it about a Masayuki (Kyiomaro) that I thought was a gimei and who got a tokuho. 

[Guest Simon R]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

I don't have to be humble, I know my limits and I study nihonto the same way I studied physics, that is to say very seriously. When I am wrong I admit it, I did it about a Masayuki (Kyiomaro) that I thought was a gimei and who got a tokuho. 

 

Jacques old chap,

 

I respect your seriousness in study, I truly do.

 

However, I, on the other hand, honestly don’t care if the hada being so heatedly debated turns out to be koitame, mokume, muji or Daiso. 

Life’s too short.
 

Frankly, after nearly three years of living like a hermit in Japan avoiding COVID-19 - and now having to witness the evil brutality of the Russia/Ukraine war - I simply wish to be as pleasant as possible to my fellow human beings - especially those most excellent individuals who share my passions for Japanese art and literature.

 

So, no one’s asking you be humble (God forbid), just perhaps to be less aggressively confrontational with… every… single… post.

(Your immense knowledge could be a force for good if you could only resist coming off as a poor man’s Lord Voldemort every time you dispensed some of it.)

 

And yes, I acknowledge that you admitted you were wrong about

the Masayuki - it was damnably unlucky about those two pages sticking together, wasn’t it? 😉

[mas4t0]

The core of the disagreement centres on epistemological differences, which are likely irreconcilable; there's no reason for anyone to lose face or be humiliated.

[drbvac]

Agreed - enough already - lock the thread - enough mud thrown and it is not really funny any longer - agree to disagree and move on !!

[Nihontocollector752]

Wow, all this over a Naotane...it's just Naotane guys. 

 

Having seen plenty of oshigata and zufu, can everyone please keep in mind that the NBTHK will generally omit mentioning every single item of hataraki on a zaimei blade, it is zaimei so easily studied, there is no need to route and forage here.

 

This thread is now borderline pointless and confusing to beginners 

 

[Nihontocollector752]

@Jacques D. 

 

God forbid that Physics is a theoretical absolute? This sentence should annoy you given the mention of a deity, theory and absolution in one fell swoop...i can hear you thinking in your native language, which is not Physics. 

 

A good scientist leaves room for contradiction, changing of theory and the opinions of their peers... you're a pretty s**t scientist bro.

 

 

[JD808]

Very Interesting thread! Not here to comment but to provide a more detailed rendering of the area of topic hope it helps

[drbvac]

Looks like Itame with some mokume mixed in - there - has both - everyone happy now !!!

[NewB]

Just lock him up

 

😝🤭

 

J.

[Alex A]

Think Jacques will stick to his guns, as there is not tiny burls everywhere mixed in with the ko-itame.

 

That dont change the fact the smith manipulated the steel (ko-itame) to add a larger burl pattern.

 

Hence why someone mentioned a kantei point on a few occasions.

 

Pity we dont have a time machine to go back and ask him how he did manipulate/fold the steel to create that large pattern in the blade, and others like Daniels blade.

 

Maybe in a book somewhere.

[Jacques]

5 hours ago, JD808 said:

Very Interesting thread! Not here to comment but to provide a more detailed rendering of the area of topic hope it helps

No moku there, only koitame  moku is quite different. 

[Alex A]

Jacques, you cant deny there is a pattern in that jigane ?, whether not mokume in your opinion, its there .

 

If it was the norm in Ko-itame, we would see it in all blades, which we dont.

 

see below, any burls ?

 

[Jacques]

14 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

@Jacques D. 

 

God forbid that Physics is a theoretical absolute? This sentence should annoy you given the mention of a deity, theory and absolution in one fell swoop...i can hear you thinking in your native language, which is not Physics. 

 

A good scientist leaves room for contradiction, changing of theory and the opinions of their peers... you're a pretty s**t scientist bro.

 

 

Let hypothetical god aside please

 

Quote

A good scientist leaves room for contradiction, changing of theory and the opinions of their peers... you're a pretty s**t scientist bro.

True, but who, here, is a peer of the NBTHK experts? Nobody; so, when I see that some self-proclaimed experts allow themselves to say that NBTHK is wrong, it makes me laugh.

 

Alex, 

 

Of course there is a pattern but it's not mokume. Seriously many should learn with having hundred of swords in hands, what's a hada. For example can someone tell me the difference between nashiji and konuka hada ?

 

 

[Jacques]

14 hours ago, Nihontocollector752 said:

@Jacques D. 

 

God forbid that Physics is a theoretical absolute? This sentence should annoy you given the mention of a deity, theory and absolution in one fell swoop...i can hear you thinking in your native language, which is not Physics. 

 

 

 

 

 

God ? Which god ? Until it's proven it exists, there is none. 

[paulb]

Isn't the object of faith to believe without needing proof?

[Alex A]

Understand what your saying Jacques.

 

Entitled to your point of view, i guess folk can refer to it how they interpret it.

 

Ps, think there is only so far we can go with discussion on some subjects, you would need years of working along side a smith to get your head around certain aspects.

 

All fun discussion though, no harm having a bash, being wrong or right, who cares.

 

Cheers

[Guest Simon R]

12 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

God ? Which god ? Until it's proven it exists, there is none. 

Absolutely with you there, buddy.

 

However, I must confess to being an ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (yes, I can perform marriages in certain, enlightened countries).

The promise of eternal beer volcanoes and hooker factories sold me on taking a leap of faith with that particular religion.
Plus, I get to dress up as a pirate (with a pimped-up Yasukunito as my trusty cutlass!)

[Mark S.]

God creates the heaven and earth… and then creates man… and then man expects and demands that God prove he exists?  Hmmmmm……

[Bazza]

This getting so far from the original topic that it is in danger of becoming a burlesque!!!!

 

BaZZa.

[Alex A]

Think we need a swordsmith on the board to give us the run down now and again

 

Someone must know one

 

Very curious about this swords construction

 

At the minute feels like too many customers guessing what is in their curry lol

 

If i was to speculate, would say same ko-itame process as usual but then throw in a few more folds at the end to create these "whirlpools" or what ever you want to call them.

 

But what do i know, just guessing.

[Shugyosha]

6 hours ago, Mark S. said:

God creates the heaven and earth… and then creates man… and then man expects and demands that God prove he exists?  Hmmmmm……

No, he/ she/ it didn’t do that any more than Jack found a giant beanstalk or there’s a magical kingdom in my wardrobe. Ergo, prove it. 

[Jacques]

22 hours ago, paulb said:

Isn't the object of faith to believe without needing proof?

 

Of course, but this is only a belief, nothing rational. It reminds me of the words of Hubert Reeves that I met in Geneva. He said he believed in the existence of extraterrestrial life but specified that it was only a belief because there is no real evidence of such life

5 hours ago, Alex A said:

Think we need a swordsmith on the board to give us the run down now and again

 

 

 

I know 3  and 2 polishers.  

[Alex A]

Let us know what they said 

[mas4t0]

For those interested in science and proof, here's some empirical findings related to the topic of religion.

 

 

If you have time for the full lecture:

 

 

On the other hand:

 

 

 

[Brian]

C'mon folks. I already tolerated a ton of stuff in this topic. But now we are really heading into the ludicrous.
This isn't the place for this. Are we begging for a lock?

[b.hennick]

Yes, please do lock this thread.

[Alex A]

Some good learning in this thread about hada

 

Id leave it open

 

Maybe if folk could just leave it to hada 

[Jean]

I have not locked a thread for ages so let me do it🤣😂

[Brian]

I have unlocked this on request so ONE member can post something from a position of knowledge.
No-one else to post.
Thanks Jean, after he posts you get to lock a thread AGAIN

[Andrew Ickeringill]

I wouldn't say a position of knowledge Brian, but maybe a little further insight, but thanks for allowing me to post because this was an interesting topic, too bad it branched off into the absurd… let’s see if we can bring it back on course a little.

 

I’ve been lucky enough to polish a couple Naotane in my time, and I feel I have some understanding of his work. I’ve been even luckier to have had many discussions with people who know far more than I do about forging techniques, and I believe one particular technique I’ve learnt about has some relation to this discussion.

 

Naotane was a master of the shinshinto period who was able to produce incredible work in many different styles. There were of course several smiths of this period who skilfully produced swords in different styles of the gokaden… but Naotane was able to produce several different sub-styles within each of the gokaden in which he worked, but rather than just changing the type of hamon, he used completely different forging techniques, which is where his genius lies for me.

 

For example, just in his Bizen-den alone I’ve seen several different approaches used:

- He made Kagemitsu and Oei-Bizen utsushi using typical forging techniques and tsuchioke to create a more controlled yakiba and utsuri on a ko-itame hada.

- He occasionally used a mixed hada in his Kagemitsu utsushi, with a flowing chikei mixed in with ko-itame hada.

- Sometimes he made a pronounced uzumaki-hada in his Bizen-den, which I’ve heard as being a kantei point of his, though I’ve not often seen it.

- And rarely, he made Bizen utsushi using hadaka-yaki to produce more wild yakiba and stronger utsuri formations.

 

Naotane’s Uzumaki-hada in Bizen-den.

 

I’ve also seen him create Yamato-den with thick bands of masame-hada, and Soshu-den with swirls and burls of chikei similar to Matsukawa-hada… the point is, he was probably the most versatile smith of the shinshinto period, especially when it came to creating different jigane. During a time when many smiths produced very tight hada, sometimes even muji-like hada, Naotane was forging masterful steel with flowing chikei and utsuri.

 

One of the techniques he mastered in order to achieve this variety of steel was called tsukurigane, it’s a term I came across early in my polishing apprenticeship, and I’ve not seen it mentioned in any texts that I can recall. It was explained to me as a way of forging steel that reliably produces a clear and controlled ‘chikei-like effect’ which several modern-day makers were using in their Soshu-den utsushi. But, it’s not the way chikei was typically created in koto work, except for a few schools such as the Norishige school, who I believe used some form of tsukurigane, but that’s a completely different rabbit-hole and a completely different level of genius!

 

Tsukurigane (‘tsukuri’ generally translates as ‘making’ or ‘to make’ or relates to a particular technique of manufacture such as ‘shinogi-zukuri’, but in this case I believe ‘tsukuri’ infers a meaning of the steel being controlled or contrived). It’s a type of kawagane which is made by forging together two or more different billets of steel, often forging them together using a relatively low number of folds. The different billets used in the process can each be folded in the same pattern (e.g. ko-tame) and can be of the same number of folds, so when they’re combined, there’s no discernible difference between them in terms of the pattern or the fineness/tightness of the grain. But, these different billets usually have vastly varying carbon content, which means once polished they’ll produce different colours and textures, and different amounts of ji-nie, which is what creates the chikei effect running through the jigane. The less you fold these billets together to combine them, the larger the chikei pattern it’ll create, and the larger the difference in carbon content, the more contrast there’ll be in the chikei. Apparently, combining them using limited folds, but without producing kitae-ware is extremely difficult, but when done masterfully as Naotane was able to achieve, it can create a very beautiful chikei effect flowing through the jigane.

 

Naotane’s tsukurigane producing a masame/mokume mixed effect.

 

I once opened a window on a Naotane that was in Bizen-den and was a great example of tsukurigane. Something I found fascinating was, once I’d brought out the jigane, on some angles it would appear as a very tight ko-itame with only a hint of chikei in the background, while on other angles swirling chikei would jump to the surface and completely change the overall impression of the steel. It was a brilliant effect that gave the steel a lot of depth, and it made me think about how different a sword can look on different angles or under different lights. Of course, the polish makes a huge difference as well, the previous polish was acid-etched and gave the steel a damascus-like effect.

 

These two pics are of the Naotane I just described, as you can see one shows a tight ko-itame, and the other shows a flowing chikei effect running through it. But the pics are of the exact same section of steel, at the same point of the polishing process, under the same light, in the same room… just on different angles.

 

 

I believe all of the above relates to the juyo katana which started this discussion… I definitely see tsukurigane in this sword, which is creating a lot of chikei, but I’m not sure I specifically see mokume-hada or uzumaki-hada. There are definitely some patterns which hint at something reminiscent of mokume, but I don’t think they’re actually forming a proper burl pattern, it seems that they’re a sort of wavy/churning chikei effect, so personally I don’t think I’d call it mokume. Either way, the chikei created by this style of forging can exist within a tight ko-itame, so even if there were mokume or uzumaki patterns in the chikei, I could understand the NBTHK defining it as ko-itame.

 

It’s not easy sometimes to define a hada, for me, the strength and clarity of which a pattern appears, and how often it occurs over the whole sword are big factors in defining it, and I imagine those are also factors in determining whether or not it’s mentioned in an NBTHK setsumei.

 

But I’m no expert, and I haven’t seen this sword in hand, which is really important as pictures can be misleading, as I mentioned above, a slight change in light or angle can completely change the appearance of certain types of jigane.

 

The NBTHK on the other hand are experts, and have seen the sword in hand, in fact they’ve studied it at length as they’ve passed it as juyo. So, I think the point that Jacques is trying to make is valid, they’ve not mentioned mokume or uzumaki in their setsumei, so one can fairly surmise that there isn’t any in the forging.

 

I will say though, there are perhaps better ways of trying to get your point across, and the discussion would’ve been better off if its contributors were maybe more considerate. Perhaps there are language barriers, or things are being misconstrued as they often can be over emails and forum posts, either way an interesting discussion that merits more thought.

 

That’s just my 2 cents.