Finished My First Urushi Lacquer Project...

[PhoenixDude]

[Teimei]

Hi Jay,

 

looks really good! And you did not die by an allergic reaction, congratulations !

 

 

regards,

[SAS]

That is very nice; I was also going to ask how bad your reaction was to the urushi. I seem to be pretty susceptible to it.

[estcrh]

20170701_133547.jpg

How about some details, what product did you use, is it authentic Japanese lacquer, how did you apply it and how did you dry it etc.

[PhoenixDude]

Mejiro's Red and Black Pure Urushi, and yeah it wrecked my hands and knees at first until i started wearing a latex glove, wool glove and another latex glove on top of that, plus a pair of medical scrubs.

My hands looked like the child of quasimoto and the elephant man for a while there.

[PhoenixDude]

I applied it in layers, layer 2 was a mix of red and diatomaceous earth at 1:1, then successive layers of red and then black at a 1:2 ratio to turpentine, then finished it with a French polish that I would let sit for a few minutes and then wipe off with a wet cotton cloth dipped in a mixture of water and a bit of detergent. Then a final polish with auto polish.

[Peter Bleed]

Very interesting. Thank you and I admire your adventurous spirit!

Peter

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's not real Urushi unless it tries to take your hands off!

[Guido]

Who would touch poison ivy, poison oak, or poison sumac with their bare hands? They contain exactly the same substance - urushiol - that causes the allergic rash in most people. However, when it comes to urushi, people just try and use it without gloves; has to be a psychological thing, because "it's just lacquer, or what?" They then learn the hard way that it doesn't matter if it's a leaf or some liquid stuff, you get contact dermatitis, the really bad one.

 

And yes, that includes yours truly many years ago ...

[SAS]

Wear a shirt, also.....don't ask how i know!

[kusunokimasahige]

That looks great !

I will start with smaller objects. This just arrived from Japan :

 

[SAS]

That looks like a big project; are you doing armor?!

[mareo1912]

Hey guys, for all that have allergic problems with the urushi, the compounds causing the allergic reaction can easily penetrate latex gloves.

 

What you want to go for is Nitril (Normally light blue gloves). It resists acidic as well as basic components for an acceptable time (15-30min) and should be able to block urushi from penetrating through at least 30 min.

To be sure you could take two pairs over each other, change the outer pair every 30 min and wear something with long sleeves (smock). This way I handle highly toxic (deadly) compounds that pass through the skin every day. A box of 100pcs is around 5-7 Euro.

 

Greetings from the lab  ,

Marco

[remzy]

Wow i dont understand why so many of you seem affected by it, i tested legit urushi on my hand a few years ago and it never did anything, but then again, it doesnt mean anything, i might just be Lucky. Great table finish, love the rich dark red Brown color.

[PhoenixDude]

Hey guys, for all that have allergic problems with the urushi, the compounds causing the allergic reaction can easily penetrate latex gloves.

 

What you want to go for is Nitril (Normally light blue gloves). It resists acidic as well as basic components for an acceptable time (15-30min) and should be able to block urushi from penetrating through at least 30 min.

To be sure you could take two pairs over each other, change the outer pair every 30 min and wear something with long sleeves (smock). This way I handle highly toxic (deadly) compounds that pass through the skin every day. A box of 100pcs is around 5-7 Euro.

 

Greetings from the lab  ,

Marco

 

​I reccomend 8mil Nitrile gloves, work perfectly.

[Ken-Hawaii]

 

i tested legit urushi on my hand a few years ago and it never did anything

Yes, you're lucky in the same way I am, in that I'm not allergic to poison ivy or oak, so urushiol doesn't react on my skin. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be careful around it for the protection of everyone else.

[Baka Gaijin]

Urushi Kabure 漆 かぶれ is one of the old terms used  for the contact dermatitis which can affect some from exposure to Urushiol.

[Jean]

Now the real question one should ask is :

 

What does mean : « Fist an urushi lacquer ». LoL

[Brian]

Fixed title, was driving me nuts too

[remzy]

Yes, you're lucky in the same way I am, in that I'm not allergic to poison ivy or oak, so urushiol doesn't react on my skin. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be careful around it for the protection of everyone else.

 

True that, ive heard that years long cured urushi objects could give some people a reasonably nasty reaction!

[kusunokimasahige]

That looks like a big project; are you doing armor?!

 

Well I might try my hand at some shikoro yes. But mainly starting out with small wood placques and bowls.

 

These tubes are fairly small. (originally intended for fishing rods).

 

Some do not even use gloves.... (I will).

 

 

 

[peterm1_nihonto]

I like the effect of the piece undertaken by Bullet Sprinkler. I think the style of work is known in Japanese as Negoro Nuri although this name is usually applied to a finish with an undercoat of black lacquer and a top coat of red (rather than the other way around) and piece in this thread may have a different name in Japanese. Someone here may know. Never the less the result looks very nice.

 

Although given this is a Board on Nihonto and this is perhaps not strictly the place for my post, I never the less wonder if anyone here has tried using an urushi substitute (not the cashew one) for modern sword fittings. A year or so back I tried a formulation based upon one I found in a pdf download on modern saya making. It suggested that a reasonable and safe substitute could be made with high quality spar varnish (so named for the wooden spars on sailing ships) combined with coloring powers based upon the iron oxides commonly available in hardware stores for coloring concrete. I wanted to lacquer my first serious attempt at saya making (not for a nihonto) but lacked the confidence to do so using urushi for my first attempt which in any event was difficult to get and besides I was a little worried about dermatitis. The process involved a 25mm super fine brush from an artist's store and of course mixing the varnish with a suitable quantity of oxide powder to get a runny but moderately thick, creamy consistency. I did not make a note of the proportions I used as I varied it over time as I experimented. Instead I went mainly by the consistency of the resulting mix which desirably is thin enough for even brushing but thick enough to provide good coverage. The proportions of oxide I used though was about 10 of black to one of dark brown - I did not want jet black result but was after a final result that had a little complexity and depth and judged that a small addition of brown would achieve this - which it did. Of course such oxides come in a small range of natural colors including a red very similar to the one used as the base coat in the test piece in this thread.

 

A further advantage of the spar varnish substitute was that in warmer weather it is possible to achieve up to two coats a day if the first is applied early enough. Unlike urushi which of course is notoriously slow. When each coat is dry I cut it back lightly with 2000 grit wet and dry paper or 0000 steel wool (when an extra cut was needed) before  applying the next. I made a purpose built stand to hold the saya either horizontally or vertically and rotate it to facilitate the coating process and hold it while it dries. I applied approximately 20 coats which gave it a robust and superb finish with great depth. The final polish was made using an ultra fine metal polish which gave a semi polished satin look.

 

I have since been experimenting with a Japanese style Ishime (stone finish) saya using the same products as described above but applied differently. This is messy and a little difficult but achievable using more or less traditional techniques and modern materials. The sword saya must be held horizontally  in the above mentioned fixture and able to be rotated. A layer of oxide colored varnish based lacquer is first applied to the saya and while still sticky and only partly dried, dry oxide powder is sprinkled onto it from above in a fine cloud. This can be achieved by using a small kitchen wire strainer over which fabric from women's stocking is fixed so the powder falls through it in a fine mist. The result is then allowed to dry fully. Although this will mean only some of the powder that is directly in contact with the underlying varnish will stick. The remaining powder must be brushed off and the process repeated to build up the coats.  However, I  found (and this is cheating a bit) that using a spray can of clear varnish coat the resulting finish could be  sprayed to further bond the otherwise loose top coating of powder to the undercoat of varnish based lacquer. The whole process is then repeated as many times as needed and several top coats of varnish based lacquer applied to give durability to the final finish. A quicker way (involving even more cheating - but effective) is to buy from the hardware store a small pot of stone textured paint. Apply this as the foundation coat, use a stippling brush to make sure there are no brush marks in it and when it dries then do as I have described above. Using this technique you will get a much quicker stone look effect as the base coat already has a significant stone texture. I have used these techniques a few times now and find them to be effective and durable though durability depends on the number of coats used and in general more is better. None of these techniques are suitable for anyone working on a real Nihonto of course, but for reproduction swords / koshirae they do the job very well indeed, looking quite authentic and being robust.

 

I further refinement on the ishime finish that I will try with my next experiment is to use different lacquer colors in the bottom and top coats. In the final stages a light rubbing with wet and dry paper cuts through the higher ridges in the ishime finish allowing a random pattern of different color to show through in much the same way as the red and black in this initial thread.

 

For those not familiar with ishime this picture from the internet gives a good idea of the basic effect on what looks like a real Nihonto saya.

 

http://www.ryujinswords.com/Pictures/Services/DSC_0088.JPG

[PhoenixDude]

That looks like a big project; are you doing armor?!

I havent thought about it, but i could probably give it a shot if someone wanted me to dp a piece for them. It would probably be a bit easier than wood.

[SAS]

Forgot how even microscopic particles of urushi, even dry when sanding, can cause a severe dermatitis.....very uncomfortable. This is from work done on Tuesday.

[TETSUGENDO]

Brings me back to my first go around,  you have my sympathy.  It's evil stuff but, as far as I am concerned, has no substitute for beauty/durability.

[Brian]

Ouch. Looks bad. Probably feels worse. What is the treatment?

[mywei]

steroid cream plus antihistamines i suspect

 

Ouch. Looks bad. Probably feels worse. What is the treatment?

[IanB]

You can now buy real urushi that is relatively non-toxic. I suffered in the past but I can use this without any problem whatsoever.

Ian Bottomley

[SAS]

Ouch. Looks bad. Probably feels worse. What is the treatment?

 

So far i am self treating with benadryl for the itch, and a triamcinolone acetone cream i had that is anti pruritic, along with calamine lotion and some Renew skin cream. That and time....seems marginally better today, looked pretty bad yesterday, worse than the photo. This go round was from sanding dry urushi; I will not be taking chances with this stuff again!

[SAS]

I was messaging with someone who recommended bacitracin antibioticlotion followed by Preparation H; I tried it last night and my hands are better today, still red but less irritation and swelling. Will try some more before aikido class, and after.