A Wakizashi By Yoshimichi, But Which One ?

[Sly]

Hi to everyone.

 

I've bought a year ago a wakizashi from an individual for a relatively decent price, for the main reason it was in a bad shape. I've sent this wakizashi to a polisher and it should be ready at the end of this year.

 

From my reasearch, I've found that the mei was "tanba no kami yoshimichi". The hamon seems to be sudare-ba, so perhaps it is a genuine one. Now, I have a chalenge : which Yoshimichi is it ? shodai, nidai, etc. ? Osaka or Kyoto ?

 

Thanks for your help !

 

Sylvain

[Davidarmy]

Here is a reference for the two, I figure you rule out a few as only Kyo added kiku, Osaka was not allowed.

[christianmalterre]

how about the Sandai Settsu ?

 

do compare it please!....actually it seems me "weak" to my textbookexamples!

 

Mishina-Den books....

 

 

 

it´s but you to proof this now...

 

Christian

[Brian]

If it has sudare-ba then it should have a good chance. Not too many other smiths doing this that would have been used for gimei purposes.

[Sly]

Thank you David, Christian and Brian for these usefull comments.

 

Indeed, I have to study a little further this blade, but only once it will get fully polished. For the moment, I can guess the sudare ba design of the hamon within the rust, but I am not abble to take a picture wich shows it. Sorry for that.

 

I will share with the board the photos of this wakizashi once the polishing beeing done, so as we can have a better judgment. However, I am thinking of sending it to Japan to pass shinsa. The above comment of Brian makes me a little bit more confident for the result.

[Jim P]

Hi Sylvain, IMHO.  I think you should get it to shinsa , I had a look at a few references and had no luck matching it to Osaka or Kyoto has the polisher given a opinion on the mei ? As you say ( I can guess the sudare ba design of the hamon within the rust, ) are you 100% its sudare ba ?

[Sly]

Hi Jim.

 

The polisher thinks it's a real one, even if he could'nt determine which generation it is. He just began his work on the blade, so he couldn't reveal yet the sudare-ba. However, he told me yesterday that he was planning to do a "window" on the blade (polishing a small part) so as to check the jihada and hamon for my purpose. He had an interesting remark about the "weakness" of the mei : "who could say he signs exactly 100 % the same way everytime, expecially when it is hand made ?" I would emphasize : mei are not hot stamps, right ? So, in theory there could be a sligthly difference of signing from a blade to another, even it is performed by the same swordsmith.

 

Anyway, through my different readding, I was taught : don't judge the mei by itself, judge the entire blade. Please wait for further photos of the blade itself and we'll have a better judgment. Meanwhile, here's another picture of the mei with natural lignt. Looks better.

[Jim P]

Hi Sylvain, IMHO I am surprised the  polisher would say that, yes there is variation in the way a smith signed but they did not have bad days and your mei has some differences that I had a ? about for example Hawley lists 3 generations so have put up  some shoshin mei from Aoi art what do you think ? the Yasurime looks ok but the mei has some ? I would be interested to find out who signed it if its shoshin

[Sly]

Hi !

 

The mei is an issue I agree , for it seems definitely a bit weak compared to other signatures of these swordsmiths.

 

Anyway, the polisher sent me this morning some pictures of the hamon at the first step of polishing. What do you think ? Is it sudare-ba or not ?

 

Thanks for your help !

 

Sylvain

[Gunome]

From what I see, yes, it is close to what Yoshimichi produced.

I let knowledgeable people confirm it (or not)

[Jean]

It is sudareba Sylvain

[Jim P]

I agree with Jean that's  sudareba let us know if you submit for papers and what the result is   

[Brian]

Going to be a nice sword...

[Sly]

A big thank you to all of you guys, I think we have moved forward.

 

I will submit it to NBTHK shinsa for sure, thanks to your comments. You will have to wait for the result for a while, as the polishing has just beginning. I will do an update of this thread once the sashi-komi has been done completely, and obviously once it has passed the shinsa.

 

Sylvain

[Jean]

Here is one:

 

http://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/16112.html

[Darcy]

This is sudareba. 

 

 

I don't see it in yours. But not all of them show sudareba. It's maybe 50%. 

[Fuuten]

Every time i see a photo where the hamon is so clear and beautiful i can't help but imagine just what the smith's clay-work looked like in order to nudge it to become like it is. Just gorgeous!

[Jim P]

Thanks Darcy, I also had a tinge of doubt when I first looked a the pics but put it down to the polish not being finished ? thanks Sylvain for posting it

[Jacques]

Red flag

[Darcy]

I'm not a polisher so I can't say where I'd expect one of these to turn up the activity or not. Ted recently polished one and can comment. 

[Jim P]

Hi Darcy, I had a look at a few Yoshimichi most of the ones I looked at did not have sudareba about 60% and looking at this blade it has some of the form that makes up sudareba so maybe a mix ? or just the polish ? we will see when the polish is finished .I enjoy doing a bit of kantei  right or wrong it helps improve our skills

 

Hi Jacques, Saw that the atari was pointing the wrong way and looked off is that what you are pointing to ? it should be pointing down when this was first posted I had a look at a few and some characters vary a bit but the only one that had it in this place was yamato no kami yoshimich but the rest of the mei does not match look at pic For those that want a good article on the kyoto yoshimich's mei have a look at  TOKEN  TO  REKISHI Issue 614 IMHO if you take all of the info together it has a good chance at shoshin,

[Sly]

Hi all !

 

It's been a few months since my last post on this thread.

 

I got the wakizashi back from the polisher. Now it's on its way to Japan to pass Shinsa. While awaiting for the judgment, here are some pics of the blade. I got difficulties to take good pictures with the poor light of my appartment, so please be kind !

 

[SAS]

Very nice! A very good candidate for shinsa indeed!

[Jim P]

Hi Sylvain, Looks good, I would be interested to know who the smith is ? Good luck 

[Brian]

Classic sudareba. Should be a decent result.

[Darcy]

Probably OK. 

 

The NBTHK is not always confident in the generations and over time the scholarship on Yoshimichi (as a school) has shifted around a bit. So you need to be prepared for it to come back, if it's legit, as just copying the mei onto the papers without any resolution of ambiguity. Whomever submits it then, if it comes back without saying anything about generation then probably you may want to try a sayagaki. They do not seem to want to really nail the generation down though and will either say shodai or else later generation if the Juyo are any indication and this is more prevalent in recent history than in older Juyo, wherein if the blade was really good it just went to the shodai. None of the Juyo have kiku mon though. Odd side note. Though many are not by the shodai. 

[YOJIMBO]

same searching. which generation ? thank you

[YOJIMBO]

any help ?

[Jim P]

Hi Simon, If you want the members to comment you need to give us some more info like pics of the blade? My best guess with the very limited info would be look at later Kyoto generations maybe the 6th ? plate ll but as Darcy stated if the NBTHK is not always confident in the generations then we don't have much of a  chance

some more info,

YOSHIMICHI TANBA NO KAMI ROKUDAI [HOREKI 1751 YAMASHIRO] SHINTO CHUJOSAKU

He is called Mishina Tokichi, and he received the title of Tanba no Kami in Horeki Sannen (1753). He is said to have become an excellent smith, and he died at the beginning of the Kansei era. Even during a time when the sword industry had been crippled for a long time, the Yoshimichi Ke continued the industry of their ancestors even under bitter conditions, and moreover, he took pleasure in meeting the demand for swords until his twilight years.

Signature:        TANBA NO KAMI YOSHIMICHI with a KIKU MON inscribed.

Plate II:            TANBA NO KAMI FUJIWARA YOSHIMICHI with a KIKU MON inscribed.

Caption: ROKUDAI YOSHIMICHI, Sixth generation Yoshimichi

[Sly]

Hi all !

 

I just got the results of the kantei for my wakizashi:

 

NBTHK judged it as gimei

NTHK-NPO judged it as genuine (origami issued)

 

As the blade is still in Japan, I don't have the NTHK origami yet. We'll see if there is any indication of the generation on it.

 

Still, I'm quite surprised of the difference of judgment of the two associations for the same blade... Seems to be often the case by  reading other topics.