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Can Of Worms (Why Mantetsu-To Go So High)

lonely panet

By lonely panet
in Military Swords of Japan

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lonely panet Grand Master

lonely panet

Posted
Posted

Hi guys, well im in a mood....

 

ok mantetsu-to! for what silly reason is the demand for there swords making them so prized/ over priced or over rated???

 

iv done a lot of reading into them, and I know there interesting in regards to the manufacture and testing they went through.

 

but at the end of the day, they are showato made in china ( the argument that the top end ones we made in Japan and sent over to china has from what iv read/or not read is baseless.

 

Demand??? why!, they are not rare, infact they are very common. they are always at auctions in different states of condition.

they have almost not features in the hada or hamon. the only thing I can think of is the very pleasing Mei;s applied to them.

 

I throw open the can to help newer collectors gain a understanding of matetsu-to and to help liven up the board

 

regards H

reeder Proficient

reeder

Posted
Posted

I believe being well documented helps people get excited over them. Also, the Manchuria ordeal helps. The international sword (gunto, can't really speak on pre-Showa period blades) market is being driven by a few buyers in a particular country that may also be contributing to the higher prices related to Mantetsu-to given the direct connection to history and more disposable income from a decade of rapid economic growth.

 

I've owned 4-5 Mantetsu-to but never one in excellent condition, all were used and worn. In all cases, I got more for them than what I see some nice Gendaito go for.

 

I remember 2-4 years ago (my timing could be off, seems as I get older the years go by quicker), mint Mantetsu-to were selling $1500-$1600 range then it just doubled over night it seems.

 

If you notice, the earlier ones sell for quite a bit more than the later ones (ones that don't have "Koa Isshin").

 

I did see a fairly early one that had a fresh polish and it was loaded with hada. Wish I had saved the pictures, but unfortunately I did not.

The_ozzy_samurai Collaborator

The_ozzy_samurai

Posted
Posted

Yes i know what you guy's mean i paid$3000 for it, the mounts are good and clean as is the blade,and razor sharp, only because of that mei makes it $$, im no expert but from i understood those blades where like meant to be the best from the best smith's even tho ll where signed with same name for some exibition or show?making it hard to tell who made what? as i said i dont claim to be an expert so dont bash me too hard but that is what i thought those blades where for?

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Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

I don't think they were made by good smiths at all. I think their claim to fame was the new treatment of the steel and manufacturing methods, which was supposedly superior as far as performance goes. Better tool, worse art object. Am I wrong?

  • Like 2
The_ozzy_samurai Collaborator

The_ozzy_samurai

Posted
Posted

I don't think they were made by good smiths at all. I think their claim to fame was the new treatment of the steel and manufacturing methods, which was supposedly superior as far as performance goes. Better tool, worse art object. Am I wrong?

 

Actually i think your on the right path Brian, i remember reading somewhere ages ago about the new technique and steel used meant to make them stronger or better then your average gunto blade,but are we really going to test that? i saw one cut in half to expose core steel in a book, im still pretty sure many smiths made these type of blades for some exibition and the number in kanji symbol on spine relates to the smith who made it,but im sure that paperwork is long gone so who know's who made what?but yeah overall the blade doesnt appear to be anything special as to other gunto blades,i think more work went into the tang,as the hamon is nothing special as seen in pics

Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

Posted
Posted

 There is a fair old discussion of a related topic over here.  http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?497553-Why-do-Japanese-Type-95-NCO-swords-get-more-money-than-officers-versions 

 One of the things coming out is that all the Gunto are rarer than we used to believe, production numbers lower than thought and many of them destroyed during the occupation!

  I think the comment about  a new coterie of buyers coming to the market is both interesting and valid. Over here in the UK they are paying big money for stuff related to their history and driving prices up on the market.

Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Here's an article from a Japanese newspaper from WWII explaining that the gunto were highly prized back then:

 

"Manchurian steel was highly prized by the Japanese swordsmiths as evidenced by the following article.

 

Japanese-American Courier, Seattle, Washington, June 4, 1938

[Note: This article first appeared in Japan Times.]

 

TOKIO -- Swords are still a prime necessity in war time, despite airplanes, armored tanks, machine guns and repeating rifles. It has been found, and the government has taken special steps, to see that officers have blades which will suit their needs.

 

However, the blades they carry these days are not up to the standards of olden times, according to Hikosaburo Kurihara (see note), expert swordsmith, who recently returned from the Shanghai area, where with a party of smiths he has repaired 15,000 swords for Japanese officers.

 

So great was the need found for this repair work that the master smith has gone to the North China area, where he will attend to the needs of the officers there.

 

Manchurian steel has been found the best material for blades as proved by experience of officers in the Shanghai district, the expert said, and he recommended to the War Ministry that metal of that kind be used in future whenever found available.

 

"We mended about 15,000 swords in Shanghai," the swordsmith said at his home in Hikawacho, Akasaka-ku. "Blades of good steel do not snap easily, as did some of those we found. I recommended to the War Ministry that they make available Manchurian steel to all the swordsmiths in the country. It is about as strong as any we know of."

 

"An officer with a damaged sword, and who expects a battle next day is a pitiful sight. I saw many of them working late at night on their weapons, which may mean life or death to them." (3)

 

[NOTE: Hikosaburo Kurihara was also known as Kurihara Akihide, the founder of the Nihonto Tanren Denshujo (Japanese Sword Forging Institute).]"

 

From Japaneseswordindex.com: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/koa.htm

  • Like 3
obiwanknabbe Proficient

obiwanknabbe

Posted
Posted

The one I have is in wonderful condition and it is among my favorite swords in my modest collection. One thing i can say for sure is that the balance is far superior to any of the other Gunto swords i have ever handled. It is darn near weightless in hand. The tsuka have very pleasing shape, and the 2x mekugi-ana speaks to the fact that these swords were designed from the ground up to be cutters (thus the Tameshigiri crowds love for them). I seem to recall that the actual rockwell hardness of the cutting surface on these blades was significantly higher than others. Somewhere in the 68-71 range? As a blade smith, I can tell you that's pretty darn hard to achieve without cracking the steel during a quench. Overall i would say that they are made with quality.

 

They are not art swords.. this much is true.. but what they are is a superior weapon than the vast majority of their contemporary counterparts. I suppose in modern terms we should think of it as being akin to a milled Ak-47. Its not pretty... cleaner than than the stamped ones though.  And you can always count on it to work, and work well.....  Thus why there is a premium in the market. Its a serious work horse with a neat story behind it.

 

My 2 cents

 

Kurt k

  • Like 2
pcfarrar Veteran

pcfarrar

Posted
Posted

Of relevance to this thread, Bill Tagg is planning to list a mint condition shinbu-to for sale on his website Liverpool militaria. These are like mantetsu and designed for cold climates but much rarer (only 2000-3000 made). I checked out Bill's today and it was a very interesting blade far nicer than any mantetsu. It has a visible hada and could easily be mistaken for a gendaito. It will be well worth checking out for anyone interested in these swords.

 

ohmura has an article on them:

 

http://ohmura-study.net/207.html

 

Unfortunately I didn't get any photos of the blade but here is the signature.

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  • Like 1
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Hamfish, I took me a while to think on it, but Kurt beat me to the idea - it's not the art of the swrord that makes it popular to those who love it, it's that it was a fabulous weapon. Everyone comes to collecting with their own personal tastes in mind.

lonely panet Grand Master

lonely panet

Posted
  • Author
Posted

after people spend good amounts of money on a mantetsu, and then try and send one to Japan for a polish. and its banned then what?

 

send it to a well regarded togi and they say "why bother" will people stand in a pool of buyers regret

 

the continuous stream of freshly polished blades appears tobe coming from the USA. so whos polishing them

lonely panet Grand Master

lonely panet

Posted
  • Author
Posted

because discussing topics like this, helps everyone understand mantetsu-to better, and also allows people to  hear other collectors opinions to help every level of collector gain possible extra knowledge.

 

this topic may have given older collectors a better view of the currant value of a item that they paid only $400 years ago.

 

Also whos polishing the Mantetsu-to

paul griff Rising Star

paul griff

Posted
Posted

Hello,

I have been collecting gunto,s and comparing the blades for years and the mantetsu on my eyes is one of the finest cutting swords you can get.....and at the end of the day that's what it was designed for. They really are well made.....if for any reason I had to pick up one sword to actually use it would be the Mantetsu...agreed ancient swords have a kind of magic and are finely balanced and I don't think the mantetsu will ever achieve an art status but it's one hell of a tool...! I also have a Shinbu-to which is again a fascinating sword due to the blade construction...at normal temperature...That's cold and damp for Wales....! the blade feels soft and dull but when it is exposed to extremes of cold it hardens and exhibits the characteristics of a traditional sword. If anyone wants any info or details of either sword just let me know..

Regards,

Paul..

  • Like 1
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

Since we're on Mantetsu-to -- Reading my F&G, Fuller states that the Koa Isshin blades were made in Japan, while the Mantetsu (no Koa Isshin slogan) were made in Manchuria. Does anyone know WHERE in Japan the Koa Isshin blades were made?

Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted

This one I own would probably really stir the pot!

Bill, you know what you have, don't you? It's a 1938, Dalian Factory stamped Mantetsu blade. According to Fuller&Gregory, the only year with that stamp, so RARE! Mantetsu blades used Manchurian steel produced by and for the South Manchurian Railway, and used for the Mantetsu blades, as well as shipped to Japan for use by other smiths.

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