Unusual pick up - Massive Kansei blade

[tokashikibob]

Gentlemen,

Acquired a couple of neglected blades recently. One is a mumei short katana with some neat hada but also some forging issues. The other which I thought was in all probability a showto or Iaido piece, may be something else. What do you think? Is it Kansei era? I read Yuki Yama Da but don't know the last two.

It's a massive piece 47 inches total with 38 inch cutting length.

As always thanks for taking the time!

Best Regards,

Bob

[tokashikibob]

Mumei Hada pics

[cabowen]

Bob-

 

I think you need to spend more time and money learning to recognize what a Japanese sword is so you don't waste time and money on Chinese fakes.

[Uechi]

Good job on buying crap.It's your money and you can throw it away it is a free country. I suggest you either learn something about Nihonto or buy from an honest dealer. That is of course if you don't have a wish to waste your money.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Good job on buying crap.It's your money and you can throw it away it is a free country. I suggest you either learn something about Nihonto or buy from an honest dealer. That is of course if you don't have a wish to waste your money.

 

That's a bit harsh...

[Darcy]

I'm always disappointed when I read responses like what I see above. It's not my place to set the tone here but I think when someone has made a clear mistake like this and people give offensive or curt responses to it they don't help bring someone into the hobby. They turn someone off and turn them away. Turning people away hurts all of us. We're all getting older and I don't exactly see tons of young people pouring in behind the last generation to take up this hobby. So please, be nice.

 

To the OP, what you have bought is a Chinese fake. If you have an opportunity to return it you should. Hopefully you did not pay a lot for it because it is a lesson blade for you.

 

In spite of side or arrogant types of responses that seem to come up on this board more often than they should, we have all made mistakes. Other times people make a good move while crowds voice their disapproval too so you have to keep that in mind.

 

But in this case the blade is no good.

 

The chinese fakes of nowadays are much much better than they were 10 years ago, which were real horror shows, but it should be obvious if you've had some time to study blades. Before spending more money you should invest in visiting some shows and trying to familiarize yourself more with good swords.

 

In terms of this particular fake, for the inexperienced I can see how they can fall into a trap with this. Sometimes people post here and forget that what is obvious to them now is something that would have fooled them too at some point in their life.

 

We all start out not knowing anything and have to go through various experiences to get somewhere. This particular lesson has told you that you should probably not be in the business of buying speculator's blades just yet. Better to buy something with a paper and in polish or seek out an advisor or friend who is capable of vetting the calls you make. Unless these things are very cheap it is easy to spend enough on junk and have nothing of any value at the end of the day. Accumulating a lot of junk can be very expensive.

[echizento]

Well said Darcy.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Well said Darcy.

 

Agreed. Well put Darcy.

 

I was lucky enough to only be "bit" once for $250, but in hindsight it was just dumb luck. I can see how if I received the same message as the OP from Jeffery, I may choose to abandon the hobby as I would clearly be an idiot. Luckily, I was greeted with a message more to the tune of "we have all made mistakes and we need to learn from them." Hense, I still collect 10 yrs later. Expecting people who have collected for 10 days to have the same knowledge and experience of those with 10 yrs experience is ludacris.

[mywei]

+1,000,000

I'm always disappointed when I read responses like what I see above. It's not my place to set the tone here but I think when someone has made a clear mistake like this and people give offensive or curt responses to it they don't help bring someone into the hobby. They turn someone off and turn them away. Turning people away hurts all of us. We're all getting older and I don't exactly see tons of young people pouring in behind the last generation to take up this hobby. So please, be nice.

 

To the OP, what you have bought is a Chinese fake. If you have an opportunity to return it you should. Hopefully you did not pay a lot for it because it is a lesson blade for you.

 

In spite of side or arrogant types of responses that seem to come up on this board more often than they should, we have all made mistakes. Other times people make a good move while crowds voice their disapproval too so you have to keep that in mind.

 

But in this case the blade is no good.

 

The chinese fakes of nowadays are much much better than they were 10 years ago, which were real horror shows, but it should be obvious if you've had some time to study blades. Before spending more money you should invest in visiting some shows and trying to familiarize yourself more with good swords.

 

In terms of this particular fake, for the inexperienced I can see how they can fall into a trap with this. Sometimes people post here and forget that what is obvious to them now is something that would have fooled them too at some point in their life.

 

We all start out not knowing anything and have to go through various experiences to get somewhere. This particular lesson has told you that you should probably not be in the business of buying speculator's blades just yet. Better to buy something with a paper and in polish or seek out an advisor or friend who is capable of vetting the calls you make. Unless these things are very cheap it is easy to spend enough on junk and have nothing of any value at the end of the day. Accumulating a lot of junk can be very expensive.

[Dr Fox]

Darcy is echoing an in depth discussion, had on this board not so very long ago.

 

The treatment of the unskilled and naive, was more than covered then.

 

Folks who live in greenhouses, should not throw stones.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Do you have more pics of the 38 inch sword? Unfortunately I think the hamon is just etched on with vinegar (or something similar). I am not sure if it will be tempered properly, so use caution if you plan to use it.

 

How were these swords sold, bare blades, shirasaya, koshirae?

[Stephen]

Bob

 

absorb it all as a learning experience, we all have bad days and post things we should not have, stick around learn, read, watch good swords, yours is out there waiting for you.

[Davis]

Bob

Don't be disheartened.. Even with a background of experience and knowledge one can still come unstuck. For those interested in this topic, go to the To-ken Society of Great Britain website, click on "Home", then "Articles", scroll down, click on "see more". It's then worth reading about "A Sophisticated Forgery". Food for thought.

Mick

[w.y.chan]

Even experience collectors get bitten purchasing swords they believe it was something better. Seen it all the time.

 

Wah

[Brian]

I can only echo what Darcy said. Jeffrey doesn't make a habit of repying like that, so I am assuming it was just a hurried and less thought out response brought on by frustration that we cannot help more buyers before they buy this stuff and not after.

Anyways, I think you can see from the follow on replies that you shouldn't blame yourself too much, but it would be a good idea to do more research and ask us before making more purchases.

We are here to help. May not always seem like it, but responses are almost always in an effort to assist. Don't worry....in a year or 2, hopefully it will be you advising someone else what he bought and advising him to study more

 

Brian

[Ask]

I know it's been said here already but I've seen this on the board a few times.

I think I even got some of the abrupt,strong,negativity on one of my posts too.

We are not all experts and it's human nature if your interested in something to go out and buy it,I'm well aware as I'm sure we all are that books and studying is the way to go but sometimes we are impulsive and just do what we want.

Statements like crap,rubbish,you think you know better,go buy books etc don't help and often hurt. There's such a thing as tact and sometimes on the board it's sadly neglected when it comes to less knowledgable people.

There's a huge difference between teaching and talking down to others and let's be honest this is a net board about Japanese swords and the like,not everyone has unlimited funds and huge collections. Some people just want to be involved in something.

I'm aware when people reply they are mostly trying to help but there's a way to go about it.

Not intended to ruffle feathers just an opinion (that I'm allowed),from a member who really wants to be on the board but occasionally feels saddened by tone.

Regards

Ps

When was the last time Morita San came onto the translation page and told someone your translation is crap,can't you read kanji,go buy a book !

 

The whole Japanese,budo way was based around honour and respect so let's try to show a little more.

[cisco-san]

I fully agree with Darcy - we all made (and still make) mistakes in the beginning phase... this is what makes the difference between us and animals - we are learning (hopefully) from the mistakes (yes I know, sometimes animals too)!!!

By the way, my first blade was also a chinese fake

 

@Bob. Ask (this forum) before you buy, but I think you ahve your lesson learned!!

[tokashikibob]

Gentlemen,

As always thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and information. It was dissappointing and sobering. Lesson(s) learned. Same old story much like Nazi helmets, duck decoys, art glass, etc.

Best Regards,

Bob

[Widowmaker]

Sorry to heard about this.

 

In addition to the advice of leanrning more that other people told you(everyone is learning and the learning stage is infinite), I advice you to make attention about the source of the seller. You may ask questions on the forum before purchasing if you are really not sure. Beware of ebay(especially chinese seller). I hope you didn't spent too much for these chinese fake.

[bigjohnshea]

Bob,

I remember the first time I bought a fake Chinese made sword. This was about 10 years ago. I hadn't even really wanted to start collecting Japanese swords but I wanted to own one so I went onto ebay. I bought a very long sword (probably about the same size as yours) for around 200$ and whatever amount for shipping. It's a nice wall hanger, but at the time I thought it was genuine and that I was buying it from someone in China who didn't really know what it was worth. Atleast that's what they said.

 

I wanted an idea of what it was really worth so I went to a local sword shop I knew of not too far from where I lived and asked him how much it would be to appraise it.

 

He took one look at it and his first words were "There's no point in appraising fake swords." That's when he showed me some real swords and that's when I learned. If there is a collector out there who doesn't have a similar story then they are very fortunate to have not been taken advantage of.

 

Save your money, sell things you don't want, trade things you don't want, and save more until you can afford to buy good items from well respected merhcants. Best advice I can give you.

 

Cheers.

[tokashikibob]

Gentlemen,

Thank you everyone for the supporting words. I bought these swords breaking one of my rules of seeing the item beforehand. But they looked good in the low res photo's I saw. When I got them they were just blades no koshirae, there were some clues to being fakes when held in hand but they were well made fakes artifically aged and easy to create illusions to a amateur. They were a excellent learning tool, but I sent them back to the antique shop with the link from this board for a refund, out some shipping $.

 

Since I am a little gunshy, well.... nihonto shy nowdays, I handled this mumei tanto recently, blade looks solid and defect free, no describable hada to mention, has scratches and a sandpaper swipe. I like it as it's complete piece with no major issues.

 

Best Regards,

Bob

[bigjohnshea]

Bob,

The tanto looks nice. The hamon concerns me though.

In the first and third photos it appears as though the hamon vanishes as it approaches the habaki-moto. Could just be the condition of the blade.

Cheers,

[Fuuten]

I like the koshirae. Was there a shirasaya for the tanto as well?

 

And also once you're positively convinced its the real deal, you could always send it to a polisher and you might become even more surprised:)

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Bob , I would save my money and not touch this one either. It is real but this style of mount is about as low, quality wise, as you can get. No one would put a good blade in these rubbish mounts . . Have a look at the nakago , the shape is poor as is the finish. Give it a miss .

Ian Brooks

[Thierry BERNARD]

...And also once you're positively convinced its the real deal, you could always send it to a polisher and you might become even more surprised:)

 

but it could be a bad and costly surprise!!!

[estcrh]

I'm always disappointed when I read responses like what I see above. It's not my place to set the tone here but I think when someone has made a clear mistake like this and people give offensive or curt responses to it they don't help bring someone into the hobby. They turn someone off and turn them away. Turning people away hurts all of us. We're all getting older and I don't exactly see tons of young people pouring in behind the last generation to take up this hobby. So please, be nice.

Darcy, I think you echo the sentiments of the vast majority of forum members, every response like this can cause an untold number of people to hesitate the next time they have a question or want to post a reply to a topic. There is no need to be harsh with people who do not have the same level of knowledge that you may have, is this reply another example of the "brutal honesty" that was just being discussed on another thread viewtopic.php?f=56&t=19631 If so how about trying to promote and practice "compassionate honesty" in the future. Try treating people they way you would have wanted to be treated when you were young, or how you would want people to treat your kid, mom,sister, dog etc.

[tokashikibob]

I like the koshirae. Was there a shirasaya for the tanto as well?

 

And also once you're positively convinced its the real deal, you could always send it to a polisher and you might become even more surprised:)

No shirasaya on this one, yard sale find in New Jersey area. I got a quick look at it a couple minutes at most, while looking at a large militaria collection and did not see any openings or anything.

 

I will take a good look at the hamon run off next time as Big John pointed out if the guy decides to get serious and let me throw a offer. I'm excited about the polish too if I can get it cheap enough!

Best Regards,

Bob

[tokashikibob]

I can only echo what Darcy said. Jeffrey doesn't make a habit of repying like that, so I am assuming it was just a hurried and less thought out response brought on by frustration that we cannot help more buyers before they buy this stuff and not after.

Anyways, I think you can see from the follow on replies that you shouldn't blame yourself too much, but it would be a good idea to do more research and ask us before making more purchases.

We are here to help. May not always seem like it, but responses are almost always in an effort to assist. Don't worry....in a year or 2, hopefully it will be you advising someone else what he bought and advising him to study more

 

Brian

I'm thinking Nihonto is at least a Master's program or Doctorate, just to be able to give 2 cents worth of advice! I wish I would have spent more of my time in Japan (over 5 years) checking out Castle sword collections vice chasing women.

[John A Stuart]

Chasing women can be quite an education in itself. Who even gets a masters degree, much less a doctorate? Now if you could combine the two; chasing women from the sword shows, of the unmarried kind of course. John

[RocklockI]

Hi Bob , I would save my money and not touch this one either. It is real but this style of mount is about as low, quality wise, as you can get. No one would put a good blade in these rubbish mounts . . Have a look at the nakago , the shape is poor as is the finish. Give it a miss .

Ian Brooks

 

"No one would put a good blade in these rubbish mounts" I would like to know what constitutes "Rubbish mounts" , because I don't know. They look OK to me. But I proly am in the same boat as Bob .

Thanks

Gary