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Translation on tachi blade

tachi translation koto shinto

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#1 ChrisW

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Posted 25 December 2019 - 07:58 PM

Hey all!

 

I am in the process of obtaining two tachi blades made by the same smith purportedly. Can anyone give me a translation of the following kanji found on one of the blades?

 

Thanks and have a Merry Christmas!

 

~Chris

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  • Tachi.jpg

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#2 SAS

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 01:41 AM

That looks like a newly made blade, kind of like the Komonjo blades.


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#3 Nobody

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:15 AM

暮立作零壹 - 暮立(reading?) made 2017

 

Looks most likely Chinese origin.


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MORIYAMA Koichi
盡人事而待天命 - Do one's best and leave the rest to Providence.

♪ Nobody knows de trouble I see, Nobody knows but ......


#4 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:37 AM

I thought it looked new as well. I wanted to hear the translation but your opinions match my own.

 

Thankfully not a Komonjo, but I am getting strong suspect vibes on it.


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#5 SAS

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:53 AM

Chris, if Moriyama san can't read it, (I think) it is due to the kanji being nonsensical in Japanese, i am assuming. Kanji are Chinese characters used in Japanese, with their own different pronunciations and meanings. But maybe you knew that already.... :)

Also, the nakago looks suspect as well, and is signed katana style, not tachi style....more flags.


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#6 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:15 AM

Thanks Steve! Yes, I am getting lots of red flags at this point. So right now I am gathering information to expose another possible fraudster and hopefully save people some trouble! I have not committed any funds for this.


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#7 Nobody

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 04:57 AM

I missed the first kanji 夕.

So the first part is 夕暮立 - maybe a proper noun in the context.

 

I guess the blade is from simonlee-sword in Shanghai.


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MORIYAMA Koichi
盡人事而待天命 - Do one's best and leave the rest to Providence.

♪ Nobody knows de trouble I see, Nobody knows but ......


#8 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 07:02 AM

Good for martial arts use if that's what you're after if it's a Simon-Lee sword. One of the better chinese makers.


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#9 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 07:16 AM

Ah I see.

 

However, the seller is trying to tell me this sword is 500 years old. I am not so sure.. that or some pictures were mismatched.

 

If it is alright, here is the link:   https://www.ebay.com...872.m2748.l2649

 

It should still display for you all.

 

They claim the mei frome earlier belongs to another blade that this blade is paired to.


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#10 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 07:37 AM

Classic Komonjo fakes, had a good chuckle at the description as well. There are quite impressive for the money as display or just something to mount and use to cut water bottles etc etc.


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John


#11 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 08:32 AM

So do you think Komonjo is selling fakes via other names? Or his source is using other sellers too?


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#12 SAS

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 09:33 AM

500 years?! :laughing:  :rotfl:  :laughing:  5 weeks maybe.......good you asked here before buying.


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#13 SAS

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 09:37 AM

The first photo you posted is a different sword than the one in the bay listing; huge red flag! Is the seller trying to sucker people in with a bait and switch? Seems that way; also the listing shows the sword as sold for $900, very unlikely.


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#14 Greg F

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 10:06 AM

Chinese komonjo blade surely. Not a Simon Lee blade imo. The price is similar to his best blades but looks more like komonjo item to me.
Good choice coming here first indeed.

Greg

#15 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 10:23 AM

Yup, I generally do not buy from eBay unless I check with people here first. I just wanted to get a more general consensus on this fishy listing.


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#16 Nobody

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:43 AM

Chinese komonjo blade surely. Not a Simon Lee blade imo. The price is similar to his best blades but looks more like komonjo item to me.
Good choice coming here first indeed.

Greg

One of simonlee blades has the same inscriptin 夕暮立 on its tang.

Ref . https://www.ebay.com...~4AAOSwnr9bUz0z
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MORIYAMA Koichi
盡人事而待天命 - Do one's best and leave the rest to Providence.

♪ Nobody knows de trouble I see, Nobody knows but ......


#17 Brian

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 12:53 PM

I usually go with Koichi-san's instincts. I think he has the answer here. :)


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#18 Greg F

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:02 PM

I believe your right Koichi-san my apologies. He (Simon)seems to be making many different looking blades now compared to when I purchased one years ago. The hamon on the sword in Chris's ebay link just looks so much like a komonjo. Maybe komonjo gets some of their blades from Simon. Simon told me years ago people sometimes sold his swords as old blades and he was against it. I might show him a pic and ask him if its one of his and see his response.

Greg
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#19 Greg F

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:27 PM

I sent simon a pic of the blade hopefully he will get back to me but im sure it must be one of his after what Koichi-san said.
Curious about what Simon thinks about his bldes being sold as 500 years old.

Greg

#20 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 10:54 PM

What of the sword in the actual listing? They said they gave me that mei to show  "The signature I sent was to show you what they look like new my were carbon dated and registered by the Japanese museum of swords and historical artifacts."

 

Which is somewhat humorous as you cannot carbon date metal.. you need a source of constituent carbon.

 

They claim the sword's been in their family for 250 years.

 

Here are the supposed measurements: (attached below)

 

 

 

I want an ironclad case to shut them down. In my mind, there's little chance this is legitimate.

 

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  • Alleged Measurements.jpg

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#21 O-Midare

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:03 PM

Wasn't Japan closed off to the west except a few ships allowed for trade in just one port 250 years ago, highly unlikely it would find its way to Texas in the 1770's
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#22 O-Midare

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:05 PM

With this blade I'm afraid all they are selling is a story.
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#23 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:12 PM

Yup I think so too. They claim their family were privateers at that time, I think they're just trying very hard to offload spurious goods as modern day pirates.


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#24 16k

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:19 PM

I think you are a little hard here!

Fake? Certainly! But still a very good looking blade for the price.
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#25 ChrisW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:23 PM

Yes, but by buying this, we are encouraging this sort of quasi-legal activity.


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#26 16k

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 11:28 PM

The problem isn’t that they’re selling those blades but rather that they’re trying to pass them for antiques. But seriously, those copies become better and better.
Jean-Pierre CESCA, but everybody calls me JP

#27 SteveM

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 09:04 AM

You've already got as ironclad a case as you will get. The sword itself is proclaiming itself to be from 2017. The date on it is *literally* 2017.

 

贰零壹柒

 

It is a way of writing 2017 that no Japanese smith, now or ever, would employ. A Japanese smith would use the Japanese era name and/or the sexegenary cycle (Chinese zodiac) year marker. The kanji used for "7" on the sword (柒) is not commonly used in Japan. Nothing about the date or the name is Japanese. 

 

There is no need to shut them down. Just walk away. Nobody tries to convince a buyer about a sword's age by using a modern nakago. It insults the intelligence. Just walk away and don't worry about shutting these people down. You will not be able to do this via the internet.


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#28 ChrisW

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 09:42 AM

True enough Steve, I'll just walk then. Let this post serve to warn people of another charlatan then.


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#29 Greg F

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 09:14 AM

I sent a pic from the ebay link of the unsigned sword in Chris's link to Simon and he said
" Hi my dear friend. Im pretty sure this abrasive sword is not my work. Both size and scale are wrong . Im pretty sure its made in China. I think its 5 years not 500 as he describes it. But this is just my opinion and thoughts, I hope it can help you.
Thank you for your letter have a nice day. Simon."

Greg
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#30 ChrisW

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 08:53 PM

Tell Simon he is much appreciated!

 

I canceled the order and the seller got very ugly, making threats to have eBay make me pay, legal action, suspend my account, yada yada. They of course did nothing of the sort, so he flung childish insults, relisted the sword, and now claims he is of Japanese history when the seller in question is a Texan con-artist who first claimed Welsh pirate descent. Oh lord, the webs we weave. A shame eBay doesn't give a damn about this sort of thing.


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