Is sword collecting over?

[Peter Bleed]

For something like 60 years, I have told myself and others that I am a “Japanese sword collector”. Activities I see here on this on-line community, however, make me wonder if I can still say that. The craft, activities, and joy that USED to mark Japanese sword appreciation are gone together with the satisfaction and growth that used to mark the hobby.

After 1945, a huge mass of Japanese swords flowed into victor nations, mainly the US – where they rather quickly lost much of the cache and value they had to souvenir hungry veterans. As families and suburban neighborhoods developed,  swords moved from sea-bags to attics and garages and then on  into garage sale and thrift stores.  As that happened a small and fragmented community of “sword collectors” appeared. I wasn’t a real early adopter, but I was part of the post-war crowd.

Given how Japanese blades had been acquired and returned, the challenge at that point was finding swords. Newspaper ads, business cards and colorful displays at gun shows were routine collector strategies at that point. I contrast such activities with sword shopping today where, with a bit of computer skill, you can discover an astounding  array of swords. All of that was great fun, but the hard reality is that if the supply of Japanese swords is limited so we can’t “find” them like we used to. The place to “find” swords these days is on-line!

The initial collectors’ cadre that did develop  had access to a small but interesting body of publications. They may be mile signs long past, but books by Yumoto, Robinson, and Hakusui etc were very useful. They explained a bit about the 1000 year history of  “samurai swords.” We came to realize that there were really wonderfully made swords and others that were not as good. We learned about “kizu”, “gimei” “retemper”. We discovered “kantei” well before we developed great skill in the topic. We certainly came to understand that quality was variable and had to be assessed.  Making our own judgements was part of Japanese sword collecting, because credible authorities just weren’t there. I contrast that with the current situation were experts will provide  you very complex judgements about swords. We simply have to trust them and learn the categories they provide. If a sword is not gushingly described, papered and certified, we better assume that it isn’t very good.

We also  learned enough Japanese to read signatures. Once we had read a signature, we got to look through a hugely thick reference with pages and pages of smiths That was great fun and made the complexity and richness of Japanese sword history and collecting substantive – and interesting. I developed real interest in the 12 generation of the Sendai Kunikane family and tried hard to understand the middle 5 generations. I am quite sure my efforts they will never warrant the attention of modern certification panels, but it was great fun… for a “collector.”

Has the magic passed?

 

[Hokke]

If you have a look in the Izakaya, you will find this topic is already currently being discussed. 

[John C]

Peter:

I'll chime in with my two cents. I perceive the notion (passion?, obsession?) of collecting swords is still strong, particularly within the general militaria crowd. I only started a few years ago as an off-shoot of the martial arts. But I do agree that the mode of collecting has changed. And indeed, the selection of what can be collected has changed. I can't afford any of the swords I want and all that is left seems to be junk that has been adulterated over the past 60 years. I think the days of barn finds may be sadly over. Thank God sellers like the "Monkey" still have million dollar blades available!

 

John C.

[Rivkin]

I think every collecting field goes through stages. First there is a lot of stuff, no one knows anything, and everything feels like a discovery. The knowledge improves, but now everything is expensive and commercial, yet if you are after a top notch understanding it is easier to get there. 

Maybe its time for a definitive Kunikane article?

[When Necessary]

Yes, I think it's dying - quite literally in a lot of cases (look at the number of key players who have passed within the last 5 years alone).

Most seasoned collectors are themselves well into their twilight years now and younger generations just don't seem willing to put in the effort to learn. Instead, there is a growing veneration by Gen X for the cheap, Chinese katana-shaped objects proliferating on the US and European markets.

Also, just how many shoddy fakes does this forum have to expose where the (often young) OP's could have saved themselves money with even the tiniest amount of research? Unfortunately, lots of those burned by their first unwise purchase will just give up and collect plastic lightsabers instead.

 

Similar situation; I used to collect rare first edition books - now try to find a young person who reads anything which isn't on an iPhone. Books are already a dead hobby and, sadly, I think that antique swords are headed that way too.

[Mikaveli]

Lots of general negativity, which I don't think is entirely justified. People tend to assume any period of contraction or decline means something is dying...

 

Also remember we're in somewhat of a cost of living crisis, and when younger people are struggling to afford homes, cars and life's necessities, swords (as with other hobbies) lose out - as they should.

 

One indicator, is prices of swords - if there were no collectors, they'd get cheaper - much cheaper. Like any field of collecting, if people aren't buying, objects lose their value very quickly. Is that happening?

 

 

[Tsuku]

56 minutes ago, When Necessary said:

Yes, I think it's dying - quite literally in a lot of cases (look at the number of key players who have passed within the last 5 years alone).

Most seasoned collectors are themselves well into their twilight years now and younger generations just don't seem willing to put in the effort to learn. Instead, there is a growing veneration by Gen X for the cheap, Chinese katana-shaped objects proliferating on the US and European markets.

Also, just how many shoddy fakes does this forum have to expose where the (often young) OP's could have saved themselves money with even the tiniest amount of research? Unfortunately, lots of those burned by their first unwise purchase will just give up and collect plastic lightsabers instead.

 

From 吉田兼好の徒然草 — Yoshida Kenkō's "Essays in Idleness," written 1330-1332 —

 

Quote

"In all things I yearn for the past. Modern fashions seem to keep on growing more and more debased. I find that even among the splendid pieces of furniture built by our master cabinetmakers, those in the old forms are the most pleasing. And as for writing letters, surviving scraps from the past reveal how superb the phrasing used to be. The ordinary spoken language has also steadily coarsened. People used to say "raise the carriage shafts" or "trim the lamp wick," but people today say "raise it" or "trim it." When they should say, "Let the men of the palace staff stand forth!" they say, "Torches! Let's have some light!" Instead of calling the place where the lectures on the Sutra of the Golden Light are delivered before the emperor "the Hall of the Imperial Lecture," they shorten it to "the Lecture Hall," a deplorable corruption."

 

Some things never change.

[Tsuku]

3 hours ago, Peter Bleed said:

Has the magic passed?

 

An observation — all journeys come in stages. At the beginning, the work is hard, but it is also exciting. Growth is fast, and it feels like we make progress with every passing day. But eventually, we enter into the long slog of the intermediate learner, where progression slows down and it feels like a drag... the moments of reward are increasingly few and far between. And eventually, as advanced learners, we might spend hours (or years...) in work, just to advance our knowledge by what feels like a few millimeters.

 

I don't think this means that the journey itself is dying, it means that our attitude towards it is changing. That can be both good and bad.

 

If it's that feeling of treasure-hunting that you're after, I'm sure there are still gems out there in the dusty pawn shops. Maybe they are fewer and farther between, but doesn't that make them all the more precious?

 

If it's learning, I think there is nothing to do but embrace the suck.

 

If it's community, well, I'm sure someone else will have more productive advice than I.

[klee]

"Has the magic passed?"

 

Not at all. Changed ? Definitely

 

The seasoned collectors and key players who have passed were once begining collectors and novices as well. And while a great deal of knowledge passed on with them, there ll be a new generation of passionate collectors and future experts eventually. This is not just nihonto but almost every other form of art. 

 

Today, It is easier than ever to gain knowledge and learn about anything. Nihonto included.  So those who fall in love with the hobby and are willing to learn will have no shortage of resources.

 

It s similar to people who are passionate about sports or music. Those who played/watched in the 70s 80s 90s 2000s will all swear that their era was the finest but this is simply not true. We are unable to process change/ evolution because what we consider "best" is limited by our own experience which shapes our prespective.

 

 

[Mikaveli]

Access to information has certainly changed. The Internet is full of both information and misinformation about Nihonto (and many other topics).

 

There are more books available, both in English and Japanese (bought on-line etc.).

 

I see active collector communities in several countries - the US, UK, Germany, Japan are just a few of the more prominent I've seen.

 

We now have mature organisations like the NBTHK, and friendly groups like the Token Society of GB.

 

Sure, collecting Nihonto will never be mainstream - and believe me, you wouldn't want it to be (far too many swords would fall into the hands of people with little respect).

 

Seasons change, but we're not in winter.

[Tcat]

Nowadays we have more resources than ever and can instantly see in high resolution what once required a trip to Tokyo. Meanwhile, one can compare a sword against dozens of papered examples located all over the world in a single evening. The magic has become the thrill of knowledge, the ability to access what had been locked behind language and geography, and connecting with other collectors, experts and enthusiasts all over the world. These all involve a certain amount of skill, albeit not quite the same as poking through attics and thrift stores.

 

Kurosawa films once drew collectors to the romance of the samurai, but the last decade has seen anime (Touken Ranbu), video games (Ghost of Tsushima, Nioh), and film franchises (The Last Samurai, 47 Ronin) breathe contemporary life into Japanese swords as a cultural icons. An impactful moment from any of these media has the potential to create the desire to hold the real thing. For some, owning one becomes inevitable.

 

I believe the importance of educating audiences with engaging and entertaining elements promoting Japanese swords cannot be overstated.

Stories must be told. Without a narrative, these objects lose their context and meaning. In the case of post-war America, the context is in the name, but going forward it will be the tales we tell our children and our children's children about the Japanese sword which keeps the spirit alive. Those stories are already being told all over the world as we speak, and interest in Japanese swords is growing globally. This will perhaps not translate as directly to the pursuit of aquisition as it may have among a different demographic, but the bottom line is that the market is growing.

[David Flynn]

Someone, I believe said earlier, the Lack of Disposable Income, amongst the younger generations.  (Scenario) if I can't afford a Japanese sword, why would I bother to study them?   Also, I came into the hobby later than most of my contemporaries, but still managed to find some that were in hiding.  Those days, with the passing of the 2nd WW veterans, finding brought backs is virtually gone.  I also found that the searching for brought backs, led me to increase my knowledge (one needs to know what one is looking at).  I do feel, that a major part in collecting has now passed.

[Mikaveli]

Another thing the internet has helped with, is knowledge around the care of swords. I know we've all seen abused examples, but for me, soon after my search began, proper care was something emphasized quickly.

 

I only caught the end of the surplus/antiques-store-happening-to-have-a-nihonto period, and whilst there really is some thrill of the find, generally (and especially without knowledge) you're more likely to have encountered damaged, tired or mass produced gunto.

 

These days, the internet allows you to fine-grain search for specific schools, periods, smiths etc. (across a wide variety of price points), which can be a lot of fun.

[Mushin]

I hear you Peter. All things change, and by and large change sucks. Change rarely has a big constituency of supporters. But not all change is bad. I certainly still feel the magic of collecting. I feel the magic of community, of learning and of discovery, whether finding something unexpected on a show table or an online website. I still feel the magic when I unbox a sword or fittings and seeing them in hand for the first time. I feel the excitement of an opinion by Tanobe-sensei or Itoh-san. Whether or not the market is growing or shrinking; whether it will come back resurgent or die, are not concerns that that weigh down my mind. (I personally think works by big name folks will always hold their value, but that's another conversation.)  I still feel the magic in learning more everyday and in the community and the camaraderie of friends in the hobby, including new ones that pop into my life all the time because of Nihonto collecting. I still feel a great sense of belonging. Yes, Peter, it might not be what it used to be, I certainly missed out on the gun show chase and the madness of those early shows, and I see some friends aging out of the hobby, but it's still a pleasant pastime for me and my friends doing this. And I am grateful for that. Gratitude is the key to happiness along with enjoying what you have. That powers the magic for me!

[Bugyotsuji]

Long before ever buying anything, I joined the local NBTHK branch in Japan, and attended their meetings for several years. In those days it was mostly old men who spoke little, listening only to the Sensei explaining what he had brought. No one brought their own blades, even if they had any. Maybe some did, but that would have been a secret. When I put up my hand to ask a question, people turned around and stared, but I noticed the teacher seemed eager to answer. Some evenings when I kept my mouth shut, (as I had been advised by my elders and betters), he would ask me afterwards if I was all right. He encouraged me to ask freely, relieved at the give-and-take, and the sound of someone else's voice. 

 

Gradually over the years the older members faded away and dropped out and younger ones, male and female, came and joined. Even so, none seemed to want to possess their own blade. They were there to learn. When I questioned this, it was pointed out that the more they learned the higher they aspired, but at the same time the more financially distant those good blades became. A friend who had once been a member in the old system seemed to take almost twisted delight in the fact that members never actually bought anything. Eventually I was able to asure him that in reality people were now beginning to buy blades of their own. And they are.

 

Thus it is that in Japan at least I would say that sword collecting is, to some extent, not over but changing in nature, and beginning anew.

[Toki]

I think the main concern is the lack of disposable income, as someone mentioned on a similar post. Like with many other things (Affording real estate i.e.), the older generation had it easier. The minimum wage was higher if you factor in the inflation over the years, and the lack of knowledge made it easier for those with a certain understanding to score better pieces to lower prices. From what I can read online, with more information the prices of pieces rose substantually. On the other hand, it makes it way more accessible to have important works translated to english and widely available

15 hours ago, John C said:

I can't afford any of the swords I want and all that is left seems to be junk that has been adulterated over the past 60 years

I think this is the main problem, why younger people have it harder to start with collecting. In my friendgroup (22-25yo) we have a similar sentiment when it comes to real estate. Why should I work my ass off, when I cannot afford anything nice in the end anyways. Therefore I could see the same happening here too, why put in the effort when you are unable to own the thing you want in the end. I do not know exact numbers for nihonto, but I imagine that the number of undiscovered swords that are in a restorable condition is significantly lower these days, and therefor the chances of barn finds are so much lower, reducing the thrill and motivation to hunt blades. Also depending on who you buy from, the prices can be marked up quite a bit (looking at you, EU market).

 

13 hours ago, When Necessary said:

younger generations just don't seem willing to put in the effort to learn

I think there is quite a good amount would love to learn, but are turning away due to not finding a clear entry point in the masses of information and disinformation, especially online. Or they buy one hastely and get burnt. That and the prices can be a real turnoff. Another thing, which I´m yet to see it in this field, but have experienced when it comes to collecting rocks and gemstones (my other obsession), is older members of the community spreading misinformation to gatekeep beginner collectors. And on the other hand, you have the sweetest most helpful guys ever, so your experience is entirely dependant on who you meet first. 

 

13 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Chinese katana-shaped objects proliferating on the US and European markets

That is not necessarily a bad thing, I use them to have a cheap blade to do cutting exercises with. And honestly, it is better for some people if they buy this than to ruin an antique due to lack of knowledge about maintance or abusing it for cutting tests etc.

If this sounds like I am blaming older generations for everything, that is not my intent. They laid the groundwork for everything Nihonto are today, be it books, research and so on, which I am incredibly grateful for, so please, do not take offense.
 

[Rawa]

People lacks basic knowledge about preservation of nihonto and it's better for some not to collect at all. I saw many bare blades sitting for years on stand without drop of oil. 

[waljamada]

I think the hobby and the market adapted and refined itself a bit.  The days of barn finds and treasure hunts in the wild have largely dissapeared and nihonto moved past it...furthermore the knowledge, research and market side of things has, beyond becoming just more available, been vetted/curated/organized etc...to turn a simplified/generalizing phrase; Nihonto left the attics and went to the galleries.  Those of us "newly" arriving into the hobby find quite a different landscape that still has its magic in the "hunt" (be it mostly online) but I guarantee the thrill of finding a sword in an attic, researching it and discovering its something "special" will always be so much cooler than buying that same blade papered online.  I feel nostalgic for the  nihonto time/experience/market you describe that I never even got to experience.  

 

Nowadays there are categories (low end/military/mid/high for example) and its hard to break the barriers between them without paying for the difference.  The top will always be buttressed up as akin to an art market and the bottom more utilitarian.  There is something for everyone for the most part.  Its a mapped out and curated world out there.  The magic will still eternally reside in learning the contexts and holding/seeing the real thing. 

[When Necessary]

Sometimes, an abundance of information is a double edged sword (no pun intended).

In the 1950s and 1960s, when returning servicemen or their families started parting with their souvenir swords, they let them go for peanuts and even the junk shops who bought them often did so only for their scrap metal value.
Ron Gregory once told me about visiting a man who had responded to his advert asking about Japanese swords. As he approached the man's front garden, he could see a makeshift picket fence made out of rusting blades, stuck point down in the earth with wire running through the mekugi ana. According to Ron, many of them were old blades but the dealer had stripped them of their brass, gunto fittings as the metal was worth more than the intact swords.

For Ron, even with his already burgeoning knowledge about what was 'good' or 'bad', he would delight in finding a Muromachi Jidai katana signed "Bishu ju Osafune Sukesada" because of the sheer history it represented, having survived a civil war (when it was probably expected to be destroyed in battle) and a later global conflict. 

Nowadays however, that same Sukesada would be derided (certainly on this forum) for being a mere 'Kazu-uchi-mono" (数打ち物) and not worthy of serious consideration - even though it was constructed on a par with, or better than, most European swords of the same time period. (I wait to be - inevitably - corrected on that last point.)

 

So, a newcomer to the hobby now thinks "Kazu-uchi-mono are junk because the 'experts' say so - I've got to aim higher or it's not a 'real' samurai sword". The irony here, of course, is that the Sukesada is far more of a samurai sword than some 'toy poodle' of a wakizashi with all Goto mounts made for a Yoshiwara frequenting merchant of the 18th Century.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that age and history have definitely taken a backseat to maker and condition. I'm sure that many of you - when you first started collecting all those decades ago - felt a raw thrill of excitement at handling a a weapon which had first been wielded on a battlefield five or six centuries before. The sheer sense of history in that piece of metal overcame all blemishes, chips or flaws; it was a direct conduit to the past. Someone, at sometime, had handled that same object and knew that it represented life or death for them - it was literally an extension of their very psyche as a warrior.

 

Now however, a beginner would buy that self same Sukesada, post it excitedly on this forum or similar - and have it picked apart, negative point by negative point, because it wasn't a "Yosōzaemon no jō Sukesada" (which they would probably never be able to afford).
No wonder they give up, disheartened and sell it on.

 

Sadly, I hear the learned appreciation of fine art critics from the 'experts' and 'connoisseurs' in this field, but none of the wide-eyed, child-like enthusiasm which led us all here in the first place. 

 

 

[Rayhan]

1 hour ago, When Necessary said:

Sometimes, an abundance of information is a double edged sword (no pun intended).

In the 1950s and 1960s, when returning servicemen or their families started parting with their souvenir swords, they let them go for peanuts and even the junk shops who bought them often did so only for their scrap metal value.
Ron Gregory once told me about visiting a man who had responded to his advert asking about Japanese swords. As he approached the man's front garden, he could see a makeshift picket fence made out of rusting blades, stuck point down in the earth with wire running through the mekugi ana. According to Ron, many of them were old blades but the dealer had stripped them of their brass, gunto fittings as the metal was worth more than the intact swords.

For Ron, even with his already burgeoning knowledge about what was 'good' or 'bad', he would delight in finding a Muromachi Jidai katana signed "Bishu ju Osafune Sukesada" because of the sheer history it represented, having survived a civil war (when it was probably expected to be destroyed in battle) and a later global conflict. 

Nowadays however, that same Sukesada would be derided (certainly on this forum) for being a mere 'Kazu-uchi-mono" (数打ち物) and not worthy of serious consideration - even though it was constructed on a par with, or better than, most European swords of the same time period. (I wait to be - inevitably - corrected on that last point.)

 

So, a newcomer to the hobby now thinks "Kazu-uchi-mono are junk because the 'experts' say so - I've got to aim higher or it's not a 'real' samurai sword". The irony here, of course, is that the Sukesada is far more of a samurai sword than some 'toy poodle' of a wakizashi with all Goto mounts made for a Yoshiwara frequenting merchant of the 18th Century.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that age and history have definitely taken a backseat to maker and condition. I'm sure that many of you - when you first started collecting all those decades ago - felt a raw thrill of excitement at handling a a weapon which had first been wielded on a battlefield five or six centuries before. The sheer sense of history in that piece of metal overcame all blemishes, chips or flaws; it was a direct conduit to the past. Someone, at sometime, had handled that same object and knew that it represented life or death for them - it was literally an extension of their very psyche as a warrior.

 

Now however, a beginner would buy that self same Sukesada, post it excitedly on this forum or similar - and have it picked apart, negative point by negative point, because it wasn't a "Yosōzaemon no jō Sukesada" (which they would probably never be able to afford).
No wonder they give up, disheartened and sell it on.

 

Sadly, I hear the learned appreciation of fine art critics from the 'experts' and 'connoisseurs' in this field, but none of the wide-eyed, child-like enthusiasm which led us all here in the first place. 

 

 

And you know the details of the historical journey of this so called Sukesada how please tell? I mean the specific one you're speaking of,  or is it just fantasy dreaming and imagination? Collecting something just because it's old and was "maybe" on a battle field or "maybe" it was in the hands of a samurai (maybe)? This shouldn't be the motivation for a purchase. There's more to a sword than just that. I mean collect Tokugawas hashi then, they touched his lips when eating.

I have a few rusty old swords that were in Sekigahara, are you buying, they're so historical, I said so.

 

[Alex A]

Dee, from what i see, a sword gets a balance of opinions and the person presenting the sword should be grateful people with more knowledge are giving up their time to provide an opinion.

 

Dunno whether you have or you haven't yet, but have you ever given up an hour of your time looking through books and stuff to never even get a "thanks". Books that you have paid a lot of money for and time that could have been used to mow the lawn or something.

 

By the way, i consider real low end mass produced Sue Bizen to be a bit of a rarity here, talking about real low end disposable weapons.

[Hokke]

6 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

And you know the details of the historical journey of this so called Sukesada how please tell? I mean the specific one you're speaking of,  or is it just fantasy dreaming and imagination? Collecting something just because it's old and was "maybe" on a battle field or "maybe" it was in the hands of a samurai (maybe)? This shouldn't be the motivation for a purchase. There's more to a sword than just that. I mean collect Tokugawas hashish then, they touched his lips when eating.

I have a few rusty old swords that were in Sekigahara, are you buying, they're so historical, I said so.

 

Here we go again. I dont know what kind of deal you have set up here where you can be so inflammatory, but when its returned, you run to daddy and cry, complaining that people are being mean to you and hurting your feelings, but it sure is something.

As for your ridiculous post, let's dissect it one more time, because like I said, I love fresh bread. 

So what if @When Necessary is dreaming or using imagination, is that against the rules? Who dictates HOW any item MUST be appreciated, you? Please, you're a joke

"Theres more to a sword than that", oh by all means, the great and powerful singapore man has spoken, lets all gather in a circle and partake of your sage wisdom and feel privileged to have had it grace our ears. So needy.....

You have blades from sekigahara? Post em, would love to discuss them and how you acquired them. Im buying......

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, Hokke said:

Here we go again. I dont know what kind of deal you have set up here where you can be so inflammatory, but when its returned, you run to daddy and cry, complaining that people are being mean to you and hurting your feelings, but it sure is something.

As for your ridiculous post, let's dissect it one more time, because like I said, I love fresh bread. 

So what if @When Necessary is dreaming or using imagination, is that against the rules? Who dictates HOW any item MUST be appreciated, you? Please, you're a joke

"Theres more to a sword than that", oh by all means, the great and powerful singapore man has spoken, lets all gather in a circle and partake of your sage wisdom and feel privileged to have had it grace our ears. So needy.....

You have blades from sekigahara? Post em, would love to discuss them and how you acquired them. Im buying......

Im more than happy for your Florida redneck to sit as far from "the circle " as possible. 

 

You do know the Sekigahara comment was sarcasm...anyway are you buying, so much to sell you buddy

[Bazza]

I remember a REAL TOGISHI who visited Melbourne Australia maybe 40 years ago now.  He was a sponsored visitor by an art dealer who specialised in Japanese art.  This man had never been out of Japan, had never traveled on an aeroplane in his life and didn't speak English.  His father was a togishi and his grandfather also, the latter being taught by a Hon'ami of the day.  Our art dealer did the tedious task of all the back-and-forth translating.  We, the gaijin audience, had many revelations during his short stay.  As he was viewing a sword one comment that stuck with me is "They should all be restored".  I'm sure many of us would agree with this as even the humble kazuuchimono is a survivor of centuries aided and abetted by the Japanese themselves.  Such a sword is a stark contrast to the higher tier swords, to be sure, but we would do well to remember the times and not our highfalutin opinions.  The trouble is, of course, the time required to learn how to properly and correctly polish a sword and the consequent high cost of gaining a knowledge entry point.  This all conspires to consign centuries-old swords as junk, derisively called 'crappers', even by me!!  However, I do remember "the wide-eyed, child-like enthusiasm which led us all here in the first place" as I pored through my newly bought copy of John Yumoto's "The Samurai Sword" trying to understand my newly acquired first sword, a Sue Kotou katana in a rather nice and good condition Shinguntou koshirae.  Its long since gone to support the purchase of undeniably better (even to my eye!) Tokuho swords.  I still have that wide-eyed, child-like enthusiasm and more of this on the Board would be nicer than wild-eyed jousting.  Surely we are better than this...

 

BaZZa.

[Tcat]

1 hour ago, Rayhan said:

And you know the details of the historical journey of this so called Sukesada how please tell? I mean the specific one you're speaking of,  or is it just fantasy dreaming and imagination? Collecting something just because it's old and was "maybe" on a battle field or "maybe" it was in the hands of a samurai (maybe)? This shouldn't be the motivation for a purchase.

 

Not very straight-shooting to call it “fantasy dreaming”, nor to dismiss imagination in this hobby   Imagination is what gives collecting its heartbeat. If you strip away the imaginative, emotional connection, you reduce it all to a bean-counting exercise... Speaking personally, where's the fun in that?

 

There are multiple dimensions of value in nihontō. Careful attribution, documented provenance, papered examples, and study of workmanship are vital because they keep the discipline honest and preserve swords both as art objects and cultural history. However, no less legitimate is the enjoyment or value gained from indulging in the imagination and romance of these weapons as living artifacts. To hold a mumei Sukesada is still to hold a piece of steel that may well have been in battle, accompanied a person along a dangerous journey or been part of a single family’s history for generations. That connection to the lives and deaths of ordinary people from years gone by, not just daimyo or the most celebrated smith of the time, is still powerful. Meanwhile, scholarship and romance are not always opposed. Horses for courses.

[lonely panet]

1 hour ago, Bazza said:

I remember a REAL TOGISHI who visited Melbourne Australia maybe 40 years ago now.  He was a sponsored visitor by an art dealer who specialised in Japanese art.  This man had never been out of Japan, had never traveled on an aeroplane in his life and didn't speak English.  His father was a togishi and his grandfather also, the latter being taught by a Hon'ami of the day.  Our art dealer did the tedious task of all the back-and-forth translating.  We, the gaijin audience, had many revelations during his short stay.  As he was viewing a sword one comment that stuck with me is "They should all be restored".  I'm sure many of us would agree with this as even the humble kazuuchimono is a survivor of centuries aided and abetted by the Japanese themselves.  Such a sword is a stark contrast to the higher tier swords, to be sure, but we would do well to remember the times and not our highfalutin opinions.  The trouble is, of course, the time required to learn how to properly and correctly polish a sword and the consequent high cost of gaining a knowledge entry point.  This all conspires to consign centuries-old swords as junk, derisively called 'crappers', even by me!!  However, I do remember "the wide-eyed, child-like enthusiasm which led us all here in the first place" as I pored through my newly bought copy of John Yumoto's "The Samurai Sword" trying to understand my newly acquired first sword, a Sue Kotou katana in a rather nice and good condition Shinguntou koshirae.  Its long since gone to support the purchase of undeniably better (even to my eye!) Tokuho swords.  I still have that wide-eyed, child-like enthusiasm and more of this on the Board would be nicer than wild-eyed jousting.  Surely we are better than this...

 

BaZZa.

Words that sink deep, into hearts of everyone that remembers there first rush, sweaty palms and tembling sensation at the gunshow or antique shop. 

 

The barb of addiction was set, the relationship of needing to learn more.

 

Words from Barry carry wisdom guys. 

[Brian]

I'm really not sure what people object to about what Rayhan said here.
It's the truth. Over the years, every week we see people asking about old relic blades that are likely beyond repair, but on being told they may be 3-500 years old, regard them as treasures and aren't interested in anything else.
The more you progress through collecting Japanese swords, the less you care about how old it is, and the more you care about quality. Yes...some want to collect Heian or Koto exclusively, but the condition and quality is always of prime importance. Who here would choose a rusted, pitted Koto sword barely in one piece over an in polish well executed Shinto shrine sword in perfect condition purely because of the age?
Nothing wrong with collecting romance and imagination. If you want to believe your sword fought at Sekigahara....fine. But are you going to ignore condition and quality over romance?
If you think a rusted piece of iron is more important because of age, then maybe you should go to those old battlefields and collect a few rocks. They also have a great tale to tell.
So do the nails in old castles. The idea that age is more important than quality is one most collectors don't subscribe to. That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to collect what you want. There are collectors for everything. But it does mean you don't get to deride those for whom quality and importance overrides romance and dreams.
Coin collectors know this well. Age doesn't equal value. So do people collecting paintings or art. Or ceramics. So why do the sword guys think they are special?
Collect what you like. But let's not rebel against the idea that Nihonto isn't all about Samurai or age.

[Matsunoki]

Things have changed ……inevitably.

I come from over 40 years ago. No internet, no computers, no mobile phones, very few books, no contact with Japan….starting from scratch armed with enthusiasm and a modest budget.

I experienced the treasure hunts. Building contacts by word of mouth, adverts in papers followed by days spent responding, visiting the local weapons dealer to see if anything had turned up. Phone calls from strangers (some very strange)
I’ve bought many swords from sheds, garages, country houses, local auctions (if Peter Yorke hadn’t found out about it)

I’ve driven 400 miles to see a newly discovered dealer (Chris Shewen) but having arrived an hour early being told by his wife that he was asleep on the couch and I’d have to wait!

Fellow enthusiasts driving down from Scotland because they had heard I was interested in Japanese swords. Can’t remember much about those encounters…they brought this rather potent liquid with them.

A bundle of swords arriving in the post….one looked nice…turned out to be a Heian period blade in untouched Efu no Tachi mounts that made a bomb through Sothebys years later. 
Being brave and going to a Token Society meeting in London …..the less said the better.

Going to see Mike Deann London (a dealer) ….did I want o sell them….no….then I really need to charge you for valuations…

Virtually no swords in shirasaya. All in original koshirae from gunto to stunning Goto mounted daisho. 
Some rusty, some good but old school polish

…..etc etc etc

We learned things the hard way and slowly. 

 

That excitement has largely gone and will never return. 
IMO the  hobby has become sterile….we were “sword collectors”, now it seems to be more “blade buyers” dependent more on your budget. Lots of shiny things in shirasaya with modern polish and papers. Ok if that’s your thing…fine.

There are those that sneer at us early birds sadly….but they will never ever enjoy what we enjoyed.

 

[When Necessary]

2 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Things have changed ……inevitably.

I come from over 40 years ago. No internet, no computers, no mobile phones, very few books, no contact with Japan….starting from scratch armed with enthusiasm and a modest budget.

I experienced the treasure hunts. Building contacts by word of mouth, adverts in papers followed by days spent responding, visiting the local weapons dealer to see if anything had turned up. Phone calls from strangers (some very strange)
I’ve bought many swords from sheds, garages, country houses, local auctions (if Peter Yorke hadn’t found out about it)

I’ve driven 400 miles to see a newly discovered dealer (Chris Shewen) but having arrived an hour early being told by his wife that he was asleep on the couch and I’d have to wait!

Fellow enthusiasts driving down from Scotland because they had heard I was interested in Japanese swords. Can’t remember much about those encounters…they brought this rather potent liquid with them.

A bundle of swords arriving in the post….one looked nice…turned out to be a Heian period blade in untouched Efu no Tachi mounts that made a bomb through Sothebys years later. 
Being brave and going to a Token Society meeting in London …..the less said the better.

Going to see Mike Deann London (a dealer) ….did I want o sell them….no….then I really need to charge you for valuations…

Virtually no swords in shirasaya. All in original koshirae from gunto to stunning Goto mounted daisho. 
Some rusty, some good but old school polish

…..etc etc etc

We learned things the hard way and slowly. 

 

That excitement has largely gone and will never return. 
IMO the  hobby has become sterile….we were “sword collectors”, now it seems to be more “blade buyers” dependent more on your budget. Lots of shiny things in shirasaya with modern polish and papers. Ok if that’s your thing…fine.

There are those that sneer at us early birds sadly….but they will never ever enjoy what we enjoyed.

 

Well said!!!

 

(Roberta Shewen was bloody scary, wasn't she?)

[sabiji]

I don't want to start again with the old story of how things were 30 years ago and how they are today. Those who have been around long enough know that.

 

But in my subjective experience, the opportunity to engage in a fruitful exchange of knowledge with other serious enthusiasts has improved significantly. There is a high level of willingness to share one's own knowledge, but also to make the objects in one's own collections available to others for study.

 

I think the last NBTHK-EB meeting in Berlin in May this year is a particularly good example of this.

 

I hope that the willingness and commitment of these enthusiasts will spread to many others in the long term. In this respect, things are changing.