cluckdaddy76 Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 I am attempting to sort out and save a collection of blades and fittings of which I am now the new owner. I have mostly been reading books on swords as recommended, but I enjoy the fittings as much as the swords. Here is one of the tsuba as an example. I guess first, I would hope someone with knowledge can tell me that this tsuba is not a modern fake. If we get past that part and it is real, is this something that could and should get papered? I am the type of collector who will want only better-quality items, and ideally, I would like to authenticate and paper anything I can, but this is also just a bit of personal preference. If anyone can translate mei, that would be an extra bonus, I appreciate any help I can get. Also. not thrilled with the quality of my pictures, for example in hand the golden dragon's carving looks much more detailed. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 I can't help much with the mei could it be 奈良利奇 Nara Togi ki [?], but it is not modern. A very nice guard but not top of the range, have you noticed the staff of the monk is a little bent? A little oxidation on his forehead? Inlay name plate of silver(?) Typical style of the Nara school. https://tw.daigobang...html?aID=m1096643842 https://tsuba.jyuluc....com/NaraSchool.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluckdaddy76 Posted March 29 Author Report Share Posted March 29 48 minutes ago, Spartancrest said: I can't help much with the mei could it be 奈良利奇 Nara Togi ki [?], but it is not modern. A very nice guard but not top of the range, have you noticed the staff of the monk is a little bent? A little oxidation on his forehead? Inlay name plate of silver(?) Typical style of the Nara school. https://tw.daigobang...html?aID=m1096643842 https://tsuba.jyuluc....com/NaraSchool.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluckdaddy76 Posted March 29 Author Report Share Posted March 29 I was curious on the forehead and other's opinions. I thought it looked like oxidization; had a long shot someone would tell me it was a mask. It seems a lot of people like these style tsuba, for some reason I am really attracted to different styles of iron tsuba more than softer metals such as this one, Don't get me wrong, I still think this is a decent piece, thanks for your response. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 奈良利壽 Nara Toshinaga Not an authentic signature. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunome Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 Hello, This is a nice tsuba. It is a genuine Japanese and not a chinese fake. I cannot tell if mei is good or not but I like it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves87 Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 I have seen a few (probably 4) Nara guards in the past with a zogan covered mei, it appears to be something they did. I have one myself, and if I'll take a semi-educated guess, I'd say your guard was similar to mine, and the zogan (however it was fixed) has fallen off. I imagine the base plate has the mei (as with your example) and then the zogan material is depressed into the mei characters. I have asked here on the forum about this practice with the mei, it was a few years ago, but I don't think there were any definite answers. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 I would not paper anything that you have a good idea of the provenance of. I have learned over the last few years of my study that papers are just educated guesses on the attribution of the piece and are relatively worthless as a value added addition to an item. Many times, different appraisers provide different attributions, thusly nullifying the effort and burning your $$. An example below. I know this is Owari Kinko. If i send it to get papered, it will come back and Tokubetsu Hozon to Owari Kinko. Now the question is, why would i spend $250 to paper it? 5 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 Another example. Papered to "Shoami". Shocker! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted March 29 Report Share Posted March 29 I’ve tried to sell the above Shoami for the cost of the papers ($250) and nary a nibble. Tread cautiously grasshopper! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted March 30 Report Share Posted March 30 Papers still have some value - I remember the great toilet paper shortage of 2020, green papers no doubt came in handy! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted March 30 Report Share Posted March 30 14 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said: I’ve tried to sell the above Shoami for the cost of the papers ($250) and nary a nibble. Tread cautiously grasshopper! Maybe when you send tsuba etc., away for Shinsa, you could include a note at the bottom, "Anything but 'Shoami', please. We have figured out that when your team's opinions are divided you choose Shoami. So rather than just writing Shoami, please send me my money back. Thank you." 3 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted March 30 Report Share Posted March 30 5 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said: you could include a note at the bottom, I love the EXTRA SMALL print - gives it that little 'Legalese' feel and is easy to overlook! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugyotsuji Posted March 30 Report Share Posted March 30 Then you'd have to add a PS. PS "But if it really is Gold Standard legit Kosher Shoami McCoy, i.e. something to be confident in and proud of, please state this clearly!" 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted March 30 Report Share Posted March 30 Hilarious Piers! 🤣 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted March 30 Report Share Posted March 30 7 hours ago, Spartancrest said: Papers still have some value - I remember the great toilet paper shortage of 2020, green papers no doubt came in handy! That was a crazy time 🤣 Indeed Green Kicho not worth the ink 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluckdaddy76 Posted April 1 Author Report Share Posted April 1 Thanks everyone for the insight. I do believe I will not paper the fittings based on most feedback. I would have eight to ten between tsuba, fuchi/kashira, and menuki and does not seem to me that it would be worth the money spent unless I want a certain piece done for personal gratification of some kind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 Quote When To Paper Fittings? Some general rules I like to follow regarding Japanese swords and sword fittings. If you think it will pass and not a (gimei 偽銘) and you like the piece enough to keep it a while in your personal collection, then papering is fine don't be in a hurry. Don't be like @Infinite_Wisdumb and be expecting a quick flip of the item especially when the piece is unsigned and only mediocre in quality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 1 hour ago, Soshin said: Some general rules I like to follow regarding Japanese swords and sword fittings. If you think it will pass and not a (gimei 偽銘) and you like the piece enough to keep it a while in your personal collection, then papering is fine don't be in a hurry. Don't be like @Infinite_Wisdumb and be expecting a quick flip of the item especially when the piece is unsigned and only mediocre in quality. Agree! Market is so terrible now, you cant give stuff away! One may ask "Why would the NBTHK designate something as "worthy of preservation" if it is only of mediocre quality" - reinforcing the ethos that one should not paper 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 21 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said: Agree! Market is so terrible now, you cant give stuff away! One may ask "Why would the NBTHK designate something as "worthy of preservation" if it is only of mediocre quality" - reinforcing the ethos that one should not paper There are many mediocre quality Japanese swords, and thus many mediocre quality tsuba and other fittings to go with them. I think at a basic level are all worthy of preservation because if they are not, they are ready for the recycling bin in Japan. Papering system by the NBTHK, NTHK, or NTHK-NPO is not the problem per say, its people not putting in much sustained study, thought, and all-around effort before purchasing to have a good well-rounded collection. With that said I need to get back to studying before work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissakai Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 It is an expensive way of saying it's not modern and if you are lucky a school For a seasoned collector they usually know what they have but for a newbie what else is there? Of course it is a good selling point 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, Soshin said: There are many mediocre quality Japanese swords, and thus many mediocre quality tsuba and other fittings to go with them. I think at a basic level are all worthy of preservation because if they are not, they are ready for the recycling bin in Japan. Papering system by the NBTHK, NTHK, or NTHK-NPO is not the problem per say, its people not putting in much sustained study, thought, and all-around effort before purchasing to have a good well-rounded collection. With that said I need to get back to studying before work. the evolution of collecting and study that we have all been on for sure! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deez77 Posted April 7 Report Share Posted April 7 Although I've never sent one of my tsuba away for papers, I HAVE considered it for some of my best pieces in order to see how high they could be rated. For me, it feels perhaps like a way to bring more recognition to fine works of a particular school...AND...validation of the significance of the collection. I have no interest in papering for purpose of selling or increasing monetary value (per se). Damon Edited: fixed typo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG Posted April 7 Report Share Posted April 7 Think that papers value (Hozon, TH) buying a „good“ Tsuba $ doubles the price. All Japanese dealers for the western markets try to sell with papers and will buy paperd Tsuba before selling it. And I like to buy the paper for a special Tsuba, to identify the school or tradition, the futagoyama tradition, kodai,den or „yagyu“ for example. One Tsuba collector told me „ the must have paperd items“ goes the same way as the swords before. And I like my paperd Tsuba (and do not want to sell theme) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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