Andrew Ickeringill Posted November 10, 2022 Report Share Posted November 10, 2022 And so these would've been made by someone else I believe. Foiled habaki are much more difficult to make than solid, and hence more desirable/expensive than solid. So I think it's safe to assume that if Sadakatsu was proficient at gold foiling, he wouldn't have been risking his life with the gold wash process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted November 10, 2022 Report Share Posted November 10, 2022 10 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said: Except when it comes to Gassan Sadakatsu pieces ! Ian Brooks For my personal knowledge (Gassan school is one of the schools I know best) do you have a reliable source to share ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted November 10, 2022 Report Share Posted November 10, 2022 21 hours ago, Jacques D. said: The habaki have in general nothing to do with the swordsmiths I remember looking at the works of Enomoto Sadayoshi and Son. Habaki were the same on many swords though think these were later swords. Whilst i don't have a clue whether they made their own or not (wouldn't be surprised if they did), smiths do get into habits of using the same version. Some here from both smiths. So, in a way, Habaki and smith can be linked. http://www.ricecracker.com/japanese_swords/tanto/st2.htm http://sanmei.com/contents/media/A72895_S8890_PUP_E.htm https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/modern-Japanese-sword-shirasaya-katana-gendaitosigned-by-yusuishin-sadayoshi/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted November 10, 2022 Report Share Posted November 10, 2022 G'day Jacques, The majority of Showa era blades by Sadakatsu have this style of habaki. This includes blades housed in their original boxes. At the very least, this suggests that Sadakatsu preferred to sell his blades with this style of habaki. It is a commonly held opinion that he made these habaki himself, but I don't know of any definitive source. Why would he be so attached to this one style of habaki? The logical explanation is that he made them himself and they are one of his trademarks. Andrew, do you know for sure that Japanese craftsmen used the fire gilding method which used mercury to make gold plate? I have read that Asian craftsmen may have used a different method which didn't use mercury. Cheers, Bryce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJASWORDS Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 Bryce, the HABAKI on my 1933 SADAKATSU. The sides are flat, and the edges are in the GASSAN style. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 On 11/9/2022 at 10:05 PM, Andrew Ickeringill said: Foiled habaki are much more difficult to make than solid, and hence more desirable/expensive than solid. The process for making a foiled habaki versus a solid habaki involves different steps. The foil involves more labor and can be difficult. I have to disagree on which is more desirable while recognizing that that can be subjective. And, sorry, making a solid gold one or two piece habaki will be more expensive. http://www.cgfinearts.com/habaki_work.cfm Respectfully, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoTanuki yokai Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 Maybe they liked the price and style of this Habaki and it was made always for them by someone else ? I think it is common for smiths to work with the same guys together for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Ickeringill Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 3 hours ago, Franco D said: The process for making a foiled habaki versus a solid habaki involves different steps. The foil involves more labor and can be difficult. I have to disagree on which is more desirable while recognizing that that can be subjective. And, sorry, making a solid gold one or two piece habaki will be more expensive. http://www.cgfinearts.com/habaki_work.cfm Respectfully, I was referring to gold foil habaki vs solid silver/copper habaki, didn't think I'd have to clarify that, of course a solid gold habaki would be more expensive than a gold foil habaki. As for which is more desirable, I suppose that could be subjective to some. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 12 hours ago, Bryce said: G'day Jacques, The majority of Showa era blades by Sadakatsu have this style of habaki. This includes blades housed in their original boxes. At the very least, this suggests that Sadakatsu preferred to sell his blades with this style of habaki. It is a commonly held opinion that he made these habaki himself, but I don't know of any definitive source. Why would he be so attached to this one style of habaki? The logical explanation is that he made them himself and they are one of his trademarks. Andrew, do you know for sure that Japanese craftsmen used the fire gilding method which used mercury to make gold plate? I have read that Asian craftsmen may have used a different method which didn't use mercury. Cheers, Bryce Many thanks Bryce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Ickeringill Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 11 hours ago, Bryce said: G'day Jacques, The majority of Showa era blades by Sadakatsu have this style of habaki. This includes blades housed in their original boxes. At the very least, this suggests that Sadakatsu preferred to sell his blades with this style of habaki. It is a commonly held opinion that he made these habaki himself, but I don't know of any definitive source. Why would he be so attached to this one style of habaki? The logical explanation is that he made them himself and they are one of his trademarks. Andrew, do you know for sure that Japanese craftsmen used the fire gilding method which used mercury to make gold plate? I have read that Asian craftsmen may have used a different method which didn't use mercury. Cheers, Bryce I'm not sure of the exact technique used Bryce, but I've had a conversation about it with a smith who uses the same technique on his own "home-made" habaki. Because he's not trained in habaki making, he doesn't have the skills to foil, and said the wash technique was the only way he could apply gold, which was very dangerous... but in typical Japanese fashion, he didn't seem to care much, his health is secondary to his work. I thought it was common knowledge that Sadakatsu made these habaki. I've had discussions on this topic with former mukansa shiroganeshi Miyajima-sensei, as well as students of the Gassan line. I would consider that a definitive source, but others may only consider that hearsay, all depends on perspective. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 Not really. Definitive is definitive, I would consider your statement as such. Thanks for sharing the info with us Andrew. Always good to read, and we are lucky to have an "inside" opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco D Posted November 11, 2022 Report Share Posted November 11, 2022 7 hours ago, Andrew Ickeringill said: I was referring to gold foil habaki vs solid silver/copper habaki, didn't think I'd have to clarify that My oversight ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted November 16, 2022 Report Share Posted November 16, 2022 G'day Guys, Here is another habaki, which you wouldn't call a classic Gassan habaki, but I believe it was probably made by Gassan Sadakatsu. it is on a Sadakatsu blade dated Taisho 10. It is solid silver gilt, with a bamboo fence motif. Cheers, Bryce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted November 17, 2022 Report Share Posted November 17, 2022 G'day Guys, You often see it written that Gassan Sadakatsu was a master of the Bizen, Yamato and Soshu traditions as well as the Gassan ayasugi. In his Showa period examples, ayasugi is most common followed by Yamato and Soshu, but I am yet to see a Bizen example. After researching examples of Gassan Sadakazu's work, I noticed that Sadakatsu went thru a Bizen phase in the late Meiji and Taisho periods when he was making Daisaku blades for Sadakazu. Here is an example of Sadakatsu's Bizen work from 1921, three years after his father's death. It looks to be imitating an Ichimonji hamon. The jihada was described as koitame, but I think if you look very closely it is actually very fine masame. Cheers, Bryce 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted November 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2022 What you are seeing as Masame, could be Chikei. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted November 18, 2022 Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 G'day David, There are chikei, but I think they are following the underlying masame structure. Cheers, Bryce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted November 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 Maybe Itame Nagare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted November 24, 2022 Report Share Posted November 24, 2022 G'day Guys, Here is a comparison photo with another Sadakatsu which is definitely very fine masame. 1921 on left and 1940 on right. Cheers, Bryce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted December 28, 2022 Report Share Posted December 28, 2022 Here is a shot of the hakikake boshi of the 1921 Sadakatsu. Cheers, Bryce 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted December 28, 2022 Report Share Posted December 28, 2022 Sorry to be so late to the subject of habaki, but the price of gold was about $35/oz until around 1967. Time vs material cost was surely an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 G'day Guys, Gassan Sadakatsu was very consistent in the blades he produced, but his style did change over time. Below is a photo showing three blades dated from top to bottom - 1921, 1940 and 1943. (Thank you to AOIJapan for the images.) His earlier blades produced in the Taisho period tend to be slimmer, shorter and straighter than his Showa period examples. Tsurata san has the theory this was because many were used as parade sabres. They usually have a nagasa in the range of 64-68cm, with a sori of 1.4 - 1.7cm and a kissaki around 2.5cm. Many are done in Bizen den. In contrast his Showa period examples usually have a nagasa of 67 - 70cm, sori of 1.8 - 2.2cm and a 3.0cm kissaki. The majority are done in ayasugi and masame. All of the 1943 dated examples I have seen are similar, but have a slightly longer kissaki around 3.5cm. Cheers, Bryce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 Could this be due to military standards? I'm sure you have considered that. What is your theory as to why he changed? John C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 From my observations Meiji & Taisho era blades certainly tend to have a particularly slender and delicate Sugata. Below are blades from this period: Left to right: Meiji - 1896, 1904 Taisho - 1915 Showa - 1926 (this was made specifically as a Kamakura era style court Tachi) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 G'day Guys, I don't think it can be anything to do with military regulations. You find a very wide range of blades in military mounts. I guess it probably just comes down to the fashion of the day, but Sadakatsu was certainly welded on to his Showa period sugata. Cheers, Bryce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu2020 Posted January 5, 2023 Report Share Posted January 5, 2023 Apologies if this was posted before - could this be the elusive "Masamune forging" ⭐️月山雲龍子源貞一模之彫同作 相模國住人五郎入道正宗 元享二年八月日 二尺四寸三分 元幅四センチ超相州伝豪壮刀⭐️ - 美術*刀剣*専門*オークション！WINNERS(ウィナーズ) (winners-auction.jp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted January 15, 2023 Report Share Posted January 15, 2023 G'day Thomas, Thanks for posting this. It took me a while to find the time to have a good look at this. Is this a Masamune utsushi forged by Sadakazu? Cheers, Bryce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Flynn Posted January 15, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2023 Looks like Mino den, to me. Any better photo's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu2020 Posted January 16, 2023 Report Share Posted January 16, 2023 I am pretty sure it is one of his Utsushi - sorry all the info I have is in that link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafuino Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 It seems most of the posts on this thread were from Sadakatsu and it seems definitively that he had his own habaki style. Was there a habaki style typical of Sadakazu (1836-1918)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 G'day Andrew, I haven't found any evidence that Sadakazu preferred a certain style of habaki, unlike his son Sadakatsu. Cheers, Bryce 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.