Could Use Some Help With This Tsuba

[mareo1912]

Hello,

 

I found this Tsuba a few days ago and wondered about it. After talking with the seller I had no real information gain, only that it is 8cm in diameter and has no signature. He won't send me pictures of the backside (strange) and he says it is from mid edo period.  It has also been listed with these informations by a bigger German auction house  which is pretty serious, and they gave it starting bid of 1000 Euro, calling it "important work".

 

All this seems a bit strange to me, though I'm new to nihonto and Tsuba and would love to hear some thoughts from more experienced members about this offer and also some sources for more general information on Tsuba you could recommend.

 

Have a nice weekend,

Marco

[Gilles]

Indeed, it seems to be a real fake tsuba. But that is just my personal opinion.

[mywei]

Agreed - looks fake to me as well

[Stephen]

Its a tsuba in name only, a copy of such. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Stay well away from whoever is trying to sell you that. Stick to the reputable dealers, many of which post here or have items in the sales section.

[Akao]

He won't send me pictures of the backside (strange)

Run away.

[mareo1912]

Ok thought it was just some junk. The "inserts" looked just painted, the quality is poor and the scenery seems like a modern composition, just wanted your opinion that it is a fake.

 

I called the auction house and was connected with their "asiatics expert". After telling my points, she told me that the seller is a well known and trustworthy collector and that she can 100% assure the correctness of the items description in their sales catalogue...

 

I quote (my translation): "Magnificient Tsuba made from patinated copper. Japan, Edo-time(1603-1868) Inlays of a general fighting an Oni. Finely worked out with high relief, rich details in gold, silver and copper. Backside with Mountains, and Letters [No signature, I asked and she said theres none] and the other part of the blade. D ca.8cm, Signs of age, Important piece from an important asiatics collection."

I want to underline that this is one of Germanys TOP 5 Auction houses...

 

Gotta grab a scotch...

[Stephen]

I think we should bombard them with emails of the fraud they are perpetrating. 

 

email address please!

[Brian]

Think we need to be backed by a known authority to be able to do that. Would be good if Ford could confirm for the record.

[Stephen]

https://lot-tissimo.com/de/i/12719385/p/1/

 

 

https://lot-tissimo.com/

 

type in tsuba in search brings up others that look to be ok, but im dragon blind....lol

[mareo1912]

Just got a new mail from in their department chief. He's very sorry for any problem caused and will check my issue with the owner of the Tsuba on monday. He will inform me by Tuesday about further actions like taking down the auction.

 

Will write the result here on Tuesday. Auction is on Sep 16th, so there should be no risk of sb getting fooled until Tuesday

[Stephen]

might be because i told them just a few min ago it was a fraud ...now if you want to bid on the dragon ....lol 

[mareo1912]

I still think we should be carefully with suggesting they purposely did this, but thank you for the backup on my issue that this is definately a fake.

[Alex A]

Looks fake to me, when I zoom in, I think I see holes from casting.

[seattle1]

Hello Mareo:

 The starting point for any tsuba said to be intended as functional is the seppa-dai. If that part is not able to interface with seppa, flat to flat on both sides, it should not even carry the name "tsuba".

 Arnold F.

[FlorianB]

Hi Marco,

judging by the picture the Tsuba is junk.

I don’t know to which auction house You do refer, but serious auction houses won’t offer cast things. There are experts who judge the items if they are worth to be offered. Nowadays (as far as my experience goes) Tsuba below the middle class are even often declined.

However, speaking about auctions I think it is worth to take the chance for preview. Here You can handle the auction items and train Your eyes on different qualities. This is by far more important than looking at pictures.
If You could not manage study the auction catalouges also to get a feeling for prices. Look for the results, too. Catalouges and results should be nowadays online available.

Best,
Florian

[raaay]

All said already, fake 

[mareo1912]

No update yet on their statement, but a photo of the backside

[mareo1912]

Hey Guys, final update:

 

They state the Tsuba to be fine and authentic, they told me my concerns are unfounded and their expert carefully examined the piece. Price 1000 EURO with all taxes, etc. 1290 Euro as starting price.

 

 

Thanks for that... stupid scammers it seems. Time for the single malt...

[ROKUJURO]

And in spite of what the description says there is a signature on the back side (MASAOKA?)! Did they perhaps mean another TSUBA?

You cannot take this one for a genuine Japanese TSUBA if you have studied a few dozen of those in hand, as I would expect from an expert who works for a renowned auction house!

[FlorianB]

I have still doubts.
Certainly an auction house would not admit offering junk - they just want to sell.

I don’t know what interest You have in this peculiar tsuba but my advice is: be careful. Nearly 1300 Euro (PLUS additional charge and VAT about 16 - 1700 Euro) is an amount of money You should better invest in a distinct quality.

 

Florian