Minor Dilemma - Mounted Menuki

[Okiiimo]

A recent purchase came with full koshirae with NBTHK Hozon certification. Of note, the translation notes accompanying the kanteisho indicates that the gold shi-shi menuki, mumei, is attributed to Goto Ichijo, mumei (I haven't attempted a translation of the kanteishi to confirm the attribution). The previous owner indicated that the he opted to not remove the menuki to see if it was a signed piece. The tsukamaki appears original to the mount and there is no indication that the menuki has been moved. Thus, NBTHK did the appraisal of the menuki in-situ.

 

I find myself curiously wondering if a signature lies on the backside of the menuki. However, the thought of cutting the tsukamaki horrifies me. It, to my inexperienced eye, appears beautifully done. Further, not knowing who to go to for such a restoration and sending the fittings out for an extended period of time is a further deterrent to satisfying my curiosity. 

 

So, my questions are:, "what would you do?" - as opposed to an opinion of what I should do and what is the relative  value of knowing whether a piece is signed versus the cost of restoration?

[Fuuten]

If its all original, you'd be destroying it. Just leave as is.

[Pete Klein]

Would someone please show me where on the kanteisho it says the menuki are by Ichijou?  I cannot find it. 

 

Under 'menuki' 目貫:  一疋獅子図  金無 means single shi shi design - pure gold.  I can't make out the rest yet.

 

Goto Ichijou would be:  後藤一乗 which I do not see.

 

PS:  Please, don't remove the wrap.

[Stephen]

big loss in value of koshi if ito is replaced 

[Okiiimo]

To put everyone's minds to rest, I'm NOT planning on destroying anything and I'm not posting for a decision by committee. I asked two questions. What would YOU do and what's the monetary value of a signed piece (vs mumei) vs the cost of restoraration.

 

Pete - I did not verify the origami to the note that was attached and I just starting the attempt to learn kanji. The note may well be erroneous. The menuki does look to my inexperienced eye close to published examples though.

 

Relax! No need to campaign for preservation, I'm on the same side. I've the itch of curiosity which lead me to post the question.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

So, my questions are:, "what would you do?" - as opposed to an opinion of what I should do and what is the relative  value of knowing whether a piece is signed versus the cost of restoration?

 

Hello Allan,

 

1) warn myself that desire is the cause of suffering. 

 

2) look for images of confirmed Ichijo gold shishi menuki (which I'm going to begin doing), online (museums, dealers, etc.), books, auction catalogs, and do a visual comparison.

 

3) and if, before removing, which I would not do, why not resubmit the tsuka to additional shinsa?

 

4) Or take the tsuka to a sword show like San Francisco where there will be excellent tosogu people like Mike Yamasaki. Maybe even pay them for their opinion.

[Okiiimo]

Attached are the notes I received with the NBTHK Kanteisho. It'll take me a few hours to work on translating the origami but it is my intention to do so both to verify the notes and to continue my learning of kanji.

 

Franco - my wife gave me an OK to attend the show in SF. If the logistics works out and and I end up there, I'll be sure to bring the this sword to share and hear opinion!

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Allan,

 

After a bit of study I would be telling myself, 'these menuki do not look like Goto Ichijo [work] to me.' 

[b.hennick]

There is a big difference between Goto Ichijyo School and Ichijyo. That is like...

Soshu School and Masamune  I don't think that it is the work of Ichijyo. 

[Ford Hallam]

I would add that Goto Ichijo wasn't, despite the name, a recognised master of the Goto school.

[Okiiimo]

I know little of Nihonto blades and even less of fittings. I'll spend some time deciphering the origami to see what it says. Based on comment it does sound like the notes may not reflect what's on the kanteisho. Thank you for the insight!

[Okiiimo]

I'd like to caveat the photos I posted and the condition of the menuki. The photos where not taken in optimal lighting using a professional camera. The lighting was a single overhead bulb with a little ambient light and the camera was iPhone 6 in partial zoom. The chisel work much cleaner that what is shown the photos. The contact surfaces of the menuki do show wear making it shinier and the chiseling less defined in those areas.

[Curran]

I am not interpreting anything on the kanteisho about Goto Ichijo or Ichijo Ippa.

It requires someone more fluent than me, but question the notes you have.

[Tanto54]

Dear Alan,

 

I don't see Goto Ichijo on the certificate either.  I don't know if this will work, so maybe one of our members who are more familiar with x-rays (and similar scanners) can confirm.  A dentist friend told me that he used his xray machine to see what was hidden behind a fairly thin metal plate affixed to a Japanese antique.  Most menuki are either signed on the side at the bottom or are signed on an inset metal plate on the back.  If you can't see a signature on the side and are still wanting to know if they are signed, an x-ray (or similar scanner) might show the signature plate at least (which is often a different metal or even the signature if it were deep enough).

[SteveM]

It is possible that the translator misread the Japanese for "one dog" (一疋) as "ichijō" (一定). Even though there is no Gotō artist who used 一定, those kanji are so similar in appearance to 一疋 that it seems not only a possible mistake, but to my mind a very plausible mistake. The Ichijō of the Gotō school is written as 一乗. You can easily see what a minefield this hobby is. 

[Curran]

Steve-

    Your knowledge of Japanese is far beyond mine. I didn't know 疋 was an alternative for 'dog' beyond common 犬 reading.

I would think anyone even remotely aware of the famous Ichijo and remotely fluent in Japanese would know not know 一乗. That is one of the most common signatures to be learned by anyone interested in kodogu.  

 

In translating for Allan, someone seemingly fluent with nice english handwriting seems to have tripped up and totally said something not there.

Very odd how it got to Goto Ichijo school. Your explanation is interesting and one I wouldn't have been able to reach with my limited Japanese.

Still, it seems odd.

[John A Stuart]

Strange 疋 is a counter like 一疋犬  ichi biki inu. John

[Okiiimo]

I'm thankful for the candid observations and thoughts. I've started working on the translation and will attempt to obtain a formal opinion through shinsa.

 

I am a bit surprised to learn that a tsukamaki is considered as important to preserve as expressed in this thread. The tsuka is what I would consider to be a high wear part that a blade would have seen many of in its lifetime.

 

Additionally, if the menuki has the possibility (I understand the consensus here idoes not) but it it did, wouldn't such a possibility of discovering a signed menuki have more intrinsic value (and possibly monetary) than the preservation of the wrappings? As commonly done by others, I'm not suggesting stripping the blade of its koshirae and selling the pieces to maximize profit. I'm suggesting that the koshirae be completely restored with all the original fittings in place and kept with the blade. When I see examples of 5 and 6 digit value blades on high end websites, most have recently restored koshirae and I've never heard anyone with concerns about preserving the tsukamaki. Why then would a 4 digit value blade have a different standard?

[SteveM]

wouldn't such a possibility of discovering a signed menuki have more intrinsic value (and possibly monetary) than the preservation of the wrappings

 

Yes, there is this possibility, but given all the comments above I think this possibility is sufficiently small so that it shouldn't be much of a temptation. Regarding the wrapping, once undone I think the chances of it getting stretched back over the tsuka in the same way are very slim, and I think putting that kind of stress on it after it has been unwound would make it susceptible to breaking.

 

 

I didn't know 疋 was an alternative for 'dog' beyond common 犬 reading.

 

 疋 isn't an alternative for dog. But it was easier for me to abbreviate it that way than to go into the long discussion of the function of the 疋 counter in conjunction with the 獅子. Actually 獅子 doesn't mean "dogs" either, but it was easier for me to translate it that way than "lion" or the "foo dogs" translation that was used on the English certificate.  

[Ken-Hawaii]

George, it's possible to use an x-ray machine to differentiate metal layers, but it's a very-specialized device, not something you'd find in a dentist's office.

 

Ken

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

 When I see examples of 5 and 6 digit value blades on high end websites, most have recently restored koshirae and I've never heard anyone with concerns about preserving the tsukamaki. Why then would a 4 digit value blade have a different standard?

 

Different standard?

 

Without knowing the details it's difficult to say exactly why any particular blade had its koshirae remounted/tsuka re-wrapped. However, the ito condition, as it typically does not last very long, has to be high on the list of reasons. An original old mount in relatively good condition is the exception. Exposed to sunlight and heat alone will dry rot and cause the ito to deteriorate and even crumble over time. 

 

Certainly swapping individual tosogu pieces (upgrading, downgrading), are on the list, too. An exceptional pair of menuki might be reason enough alone for someone to decide on making a change, and it could be for monetary reasons or display. All of which should increase ones appreciation all the more when coming across an old original handle.

Edited April 8, 2017 by nagamaki - Franco