Gimei "Rai Kunitoshi" on eBay

[Marius]

Dear All,

 

we had a "Masamune", which was a very good shinshinto copy of a koto soshu blade as Jean has remarked.

 

Now, from the same selller, we have quite an interesting sword, a gimei Rai Kunitoshi. What strikes me is the hada, it is described as chirimen.

 

I will ask the seller for some more pics, as I cannot really see the sugata. I would certainly like to "study" it.

 

Now, what do you think of this sword?

 

Best regards

[AndreasU]

Mariusz,

 

honestly speaking this is the second time you are saying that something is faked (the other threadf was with tsubas). I mean I am an absolute beginner but I would never say that until I am not 100% sure.

 

This sword can't be gimei as it has no signature! So this sword is "mumei" and it is "suriage" maybe "o-suriage" as the bohi runs out of the nakago.

 

Maybe my kantei is wrong but I am sure better than yours.....

 

:D

[Marius]

Mariusz,

 

honestly speaking this is the second time you are saying that something is faked (the other threadf was with tsubas). I mean I am an absolute beginner but I would never say that until I am not 100% sure.

 

This sword can't be gimei as it has no signature! So this sword is "mumei" and it is "suriage" maybe "o-suriage" as the bohi runs out of the nakago.

 

Maybe my kantei is wrong but I am sure better than yours.....

 

:D

 

Andreas,

 

A Rai Kunitoshi for $4,700 You should buy it if you think it is real :D

 

Now, I would like to respond to your reprimand. First of all, please note there is a difference between "faked" and "gimei". The first implies a fake sword, a copy, the second a fake signature on an authentic nihonto. I have never said the sword is a fake. It is a subtle, but quite important difference.

 

As for the tsubas - I have indeed thought that they might be fake (isn't this forum also about voicing doubts?) , but I was asking experts to tell their definitive opinion.

 

With this sword it was different, but yes I have said that I am almost 100% sure that it is not what its "name" says.

 

You got me however, with the mei. You are right, this sword is not gimei since there is no signature at all, just a sayagaki. However, whatever the attribuition to Rai Kunitioshi (be it the sayagaki or just the seller's assessment) it simply must be wrong.

 

You maybe a better nihonto expert than I am (this is not difficult, given my glaring lack of knowledge), but it seems that my assessment of the market is erm... a tad more realistic than yours :lol: Would you try to sell a sword of which you had the slightest suspicion it might be a Rai Kunitoshi for $4700 on eBay? Wouldn't you send it for shinsa first?

 

This seller knows about nihonto, just look at his photographs. He sells some allegedly "big name" blades (Masamune, Rai Kunitoshi, we will soon see a Sanjo Munechika here however he does not misprepresent anything - read the descriptions carefully.

 

I have asked the NMB members for their opinion about this sword, as I believe it is a good sword i its own right, though certainly not a Rai Kunitoshi.

 

I would appreciate your opinion too.

 

Best regards

[AndreasU]

You got me !! :? :D

 

But on the other hand, are all prices that are asked for swords realistic?

Isn't it that value is sometimes more " It is Japanese, it is old, it must be expensive"? And isn't it that a sword without signature is best "den" so attributed? This for me is clearly a 50% chance that it is not what you expect, even papered!

 

I was on a trade show here in germany some weeks ago and I can tell you that the guys tried to sell pure crap/nails for 2.000 to 4.000 € (*1.48 in Dollars!)

 

I mean I am not that expert to see the "beauty" behind a rusty scratched without yokote wakizashi in a poor koshirae to say yes man, thats a bargain I give you 3.500,--

 

The only thing I know for myself is that I bought two sword already from AOI, one gendaito and one wakizashi with NBTHK Hozon. The last was "just" $ 2.300,-- and it is lightyears in better condition as whatever I have seen on this tradeshow. So I am a bit dissapointed as I should have affered it for $ 6.000,-- to some of these guys, I mean if they try to sell nails for 3.500,-- it is fair to offer them a signed, NBTHK paperd Wak in full polish for 6.000,--. Isn't it

 

And regarding smidthnames. I don't give to much importance to them. I believe that there are some really stunning masterpieces out there, but I can't judge if these smidthes were really "popstars" of their art in their era!

 

I am believer of the situation that most of these names where "hyped" in later era's after Japan opended their borders and the first collectors began to generate a market for it. Marked pays what marked asks for....

 

I will follow my belly. That is my personal strategy and maybe destiny will prove me wrong in the future but on top I will judge each sword by it's own merits...........

[hybridfiat]

I hope this isnt hijacking the thread as Ive looked at the sword/s in question and they 'look' pretty to me. Please excuse my ignorance here but Im sure this is something many people ask themselves as they first enter the world of nihonto.

How do we decide what is a 'Good' sword and what isnt? If the sword is of a high quality and visually attractive, plus isnt going to be used/ tested in battle how do we ascribe a value?

[Martin]

It might be helpful to place a link to the sword you are talking about

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-SWORD-RAI- ... dZViewItem

[paulb]

I would like to pick up on a few points Andreas made regarding, age, pricing, hyped smiths and going on gut (belly) instinct.

 

1. Agree totally that age does not automatically mean high value. what contributes to value, (in my own priority order) quality, rarity and finally age. I would rather have a top quality shin-shinto blade than an average quality Koto in poor condition.

 

2. Where I start to disagree with Andreas is on the "hyped"/popstar image appearing aftyer openning borders. Top named smiths have been recognised and held in high esteem for as long as swords have been made. It is true that Tokagawa Iyesu set up formal appraisal to set values on different schools and smiths works but good work was already held in high regard long before the 17th century.

 

3. Personally I do believe these top names deserve their reputation, just as top European painters deserve theirs.

 

4. On a final point I am, at risk of being contraversial, going to disagree on going on what your belly tells you. I think everyone who starts collecting anything probably does this. I did 25 years ago when I bought my first Nihonto. However to continue to use this approach is lazy. While buying what you like is of course the right thing to do,if you understand what you are looking at, the history of it and why it is as it is you can greatly enhance the experience. To write off names and go with gut feel is rather arrogant and an excuse for not taking the time or making the effort to study. As an individual one is perfectly entitled to do this. To recommend it as an approach is I think rather misguided.

 

At final judgement we all as indviduals follow the path that best suites our needs. We can all take great enjoyment from the actvity. However to make definitive statements regarding whether smiths reputations are deserved or not without taking the trouble to research the subject as fully as possible does not seem to be the best course to follow.

[Marius]

It might be helpful to place a link to the sword you are talking about

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-SWORD-RAI- ... dZViewItem

 

Sorry about that, and thanks a lot for posting the link.

 

Coming back to the topic of this thread - has anybody something to say about the sword?

 

Best regards

[paulb]

Hi Martin,

Its a good looking sword. I dont think it is Rai Kunitoshi, although I cant tell from the images. However if I was the seller and had even the slightest suspicion it might be I would be at the NBTHK ASAP.

the hada looks good although not chirimen which is more of an AOE school trend. it does look tight ko-itame and that combined with the O-maru boshi would point more to Enju than rai.

As said before I cant tell from the images (and prbably couldnt with the sword in hand) but I do think it is a good looking piece.

[AndreasU]

First to the sword:

 

I would not buy it. "Belly feeling"

Kissaki seems reshaped and not symmetrical anymore.

Yokote is set on the worng point and differs from the left to the right side.

on the pictures it looks like that tha Ha in the hamachie area is "facing inward" (don't know a better word for it in english, concav?) if not the sowrd will have a "funny" funbari.....

Noticed that there is no total picture of the sword?

 

 

Now the last statement to paul's reply:

"4. ~~~~~ To write off names and go with gut feel is rather arrogant and an excuse for not taking the time or making the effort to study. As an individual one is perfectly entitled to do this. To recommend it as an approach is I think rather misguided."

 

I agree only if I would be interested to collect with the target to collect "important" names.......

I prefer to collect good preserved swords. That can mean that sooner or later I have to go the way you describe but I don't see that necessarily!

Proof me wrong but there are excellent "Mumei" swords out there?

 

I bought "The connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords" last week at Amazon for a bargain of US$ 44,95, and will study now some more detailed. Maybe I get enlightened and will follow your approach later

 

[paulb]

Dear Andreas,

first you are absolutely right there are some absolutely stunning unsigend swords on the market. Infact my favourite swords are all mumei. Some years ago I wrote a paper for the northern token in praise of unsigned swords. If you are intetrested I would be happy to forward it to your pm.

 

secondly, you must follow whichever approach suits you best. there is no right or wrong way. I just think the choice needs to be made based on knowledge.

enjoy the book it is an excellent starting point and a volume I refer to all the time.

regards

Paul

[Brian]

Hmm..

The sword has a nagasa over 70cm, and a decent bo-hi. Koshirae and shirasaya. Seems healthy and in a decent polish showing a nice hada. Even as a mumei piece, that isn't a bad price at all..I certainly wouldn't toss it off my sword rack.

Fittings aren't too bad either. So as an overall piece, I would say that under $5K you can do a lot worse. Of course if I was spending that kind of money I would want to see it in hand, but even ignoring the Rai "sayagaki" it will sell for more than this I think. Time will tell.

 

Brian

 

ETA: That sayagaki looks amateurish and done with a "koki pen?"

[Martin]

Kissaki seems reshaped and not symmetrical anymore.

Yokote is set on the worng point and differs from the left to the right side.

 

Hi Andreas,

 

I rotated & twisted the Ura side of the Kissaki and placed it on top of the Omote side. Then I lowered the opactity of the upper picture. I cannot really make out a big difference in the placement of the Yokote...

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Trying to be a little coherent, i say to myself 3 things,

 

1 - this blade seems too healthy for a kamakura one looks more shinshinto.

2 - Rai Kunitoshi extant blades (ubu or suriage) are very scarce.

 

3 - the seller is an idiot, i shall ask 45000$ for starting price and i shall sell it at Chritie's or Sotheby's auction.

 

 

[paulb]

Jacques,

I agree about the healthiness of the blade, but there are some very healthy kamakura blades in existence. I dont think this is one of them but it could be.

2. As said before if there was the remotest chance of it being Rai and I lived in Japan there is no way I would attempt to sell it without first putting it to shinsa.

 

3 While I agree ebay is not the place to get a good price for top rated smiths I am also not impressed wti h Christies current charges (did someone mention 25%?) nor their attitude to both seller and buyer Also Sothebys in the UK have stopped their specialist Japanese sales and that gap appears to have been filled by Bonhams.

 

I have heard some while ago of a member of this board buying a blade in less than good condition having it polished and passing Juyo shinsa. However if you consider the volume of blades sold over the years the liklihood of a top ranked blade selling cheaply on ebay is slightly less than me winnning the lottery.

[Paul Martin]

The pics are not of the best quality, but if you look closely at the nakago omote (katana), you will see that the yasurime between the two ana are not consistent with the rest of the nakago. Also the width of the hi in that area changes. Taking this into consideration, I would say that the mei has been removed and it is trying to pretend to be osuriage. Not uncommon. also both sides are in a similar condition width of the hi etc. The condition of the nakago of a well carried out suriage procedure on top blades is different due to the proper suriage process.

 

Best

[b.hennick]

I checked the seller. He is also selling a "Kaneuji" - again no papers. He has made many sales all under $100 - most around $10. That is a good way to build up positive feedback and then list a big ticket item. I strongly doubt that the blades are as listed on the sayagaki. OTH the KAneuji has good mounts and looks to be agood blade. Being mumei we know that it is not gimei. It is listed at a reasonable price for a mumei blade in that condition and with those mounts.

[Jean]

Talking about healthiness of kamakura blades, I must confess there are a lot of swords incredibly healthy - and shame on us, we , European, have not the equivalent. Here are some shots of my Kamakura Enju

[Jacques D.]

hi, Jean

 

Is your blade papered?

[Jean]

Hi Jacques,

 

All the blades I buy are papered (at hozon - to confirm an attribution), then I ask to see if Tanobe sensei agrees to put a sayagaki on the shirasaya.

 

He was very pleased with this one (so Zenon), He states in his sayagaki that the blade is late Kamakura. I would placed early 14th century as the famous Enju Shira Keru (turbid white Hada) is not present - Very/Very Raï looking.

[Jean]

Just a precision :

 

" I would placed early 14th century as the famous Enju Shira Keru (turbid white Hada) is not present"

 

Shira Keru is a main kantei for Enju swords but for the first smiths generation who remain very close to Rai style, other kantei points have been already mentioned , kaeri, boshi ...

 

You will see on Aoi Art website in the Sale section a Juyo Enju, with some kantei points which are pointed out . It is an early Enju sword and there is no Shira Keru.

 

As in some schools (Naoe Shizu ..), the quality of Kamakura Enju smiths is very high and homogeneous so it is very difficult to have a particular smith pinpointed in a kantei.

 

 

On Nihonto Andy Quirt site (Nihonto.us), there is a Yamato Kaneuji Juyo blade and a letter from Homma Junji Sensei discussing this sword and the difficulty of kantei (last paragraph).....

[Bugyotsuji]

They say they will only accept a return if the item is substantially different from the way it is described. So their description must contain most of the truth somewhere.

 

Can Nobody clarify what 但し大磨上無名in small letters on the shirasaya means? (Tadashi, Daimigakeage Mumei) Does it mean, "Except, this sword has become Mumei after a large polishing?" (There is a section on the nakago that looks as though something has been polished off, as Paul said above.)

[Nobody]

Can Nobody clarify what 但し大磨上無名in small letters on the shirasaya means?

Hi Piers,

 

"大磨上無銘" reads O-suriage Mumei. For more information, please refer to the last part of the following thread.

 

http://militaria.co.za/nihontomessagebo ... ght=#16597

[Bugyotsuji]

Can Nobody clarify what 但し大磨上無名in small letters on the shirasaya means?

Hi Piers,

 

"大磨上無銘" reads O-suriage Mumei. For more information, please refer to the last part of the following thread.

 

http://militaria.co.za/nihontomessagebo ... ght=#16597

 

Oh! Yes, I remember you posted that the other day, and I remember thinking how interesting, I should remember that! Please forgive my ignorance; I expect it will happen again, until I finally learn.

 

How do you feel about this sword, or do you feel that it is safer not to comment?

[paulb]

Jean,

thank you for posting the images of your Enju blade. I think it clearly demonstrates that Kamakura period blades can be and in may cases are very healthy.

I think the problem is that until very recently most of the early swords seen in the west were tired and of variable quality. With the openning of the market many better quality swords are now finding their way in to western collections and we are taken by surprise when we see how well preserved they are.

I think it says a great deal for a sword that it has been so highly regarded and cared for over so many centuries.

[Nobody]

I cannot judge the blade itself. However, I do not like the sayagaki.

The clumsy handwriting does not look like written by Dr. Kanzan to me, though I could be wrong.

[Bugyotsuji]

I cannot judge the blade itself. However, I do not like the sayagaki.

The clumsy handwriting does not look like written by Dr. Knazan to me, though I could be wrong.

 

Thank you for answering. I had no right to ask you and I would have understood if you had kept silent.