Concerns About This Kiyomitsu Katana

[BenVK]

Gentlemen, could I ask for your opinions of this Katana please?

 

I'm concerned that possibly the nakago has been welded at some point, although it must have been a long time ago.  I'm also curious as to why a lower mekugi ana has been drilled through the mei.

 

I recently bought the sword in an online auction and here's the description.

 

Japanese Katana with 25½" blade, in civilian mounts. Tang signed Kiyomitsu. Good quality fittings & tsuba. Hamon is suguha with muji hada (pearl grain) mint condition blade looks to be early 16th century.

 

From this, I got the impression that the blade and koshirae were authentic and old but in reality, I'm sure the koshirae are modern and the blade has been quite recently polished which is different from being in "mint condition". In other words, it's not what I expected.

 

I'm pretty sure I will be able to return but I just wanted to hear some thoughts about it first.

 

Thanks

Ben

 

 

[BenVK]

Additonal

[Taz575]

The ad wasn't misleading.  Never said the mounts were old or original, just that they were good quality.  A blade in fresh polish is considered mint condition,which this one is and looks like it was done very well,too.   The blade looks like it does show a very fine grain structure, which is hard to see unless the polish is very good.  Mekugi ana thru mei is incredibly common.  It looks like the mune machi may have been moved forward at some point in time or the mekugi ana redrilled for a different mount style/length, as is common.  Many tangs show a line like yours does and doesn't always mean it was welded.  I think it is from where the tuba rests; tons of nakago's have this line, right where the tsuba is located. The Kesho yasurime looks good and the tops were polished down a bit, which I think tends to happen during the grinding/sharpening/polishing process.

 

To me, it looks like a beautifully polished blade with good quality mounts.  I cannot vouch for the mei being accurate, but other than that, it looks like a nice sword.  Did the auction have any pictures of anything of it or was it just based on a verbal description?  The ad describes exactly what you received IMHO.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I'd look into Kaga Kiyomitsu.

[BenVK]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean that the description was misleading, I only meant that what I bought wasn't what I expected. There were a few pics but they were small and there were no close up shots of the blade. I took a gamble on it mostly based on the auction photo of the nakaga and the mei.

 

The polish is excellent and that threw me off guard I guess because it really does look like a brand new blade. It's very difficult to see the grain in the ji with the naked eye and the shinogi-ji looks like chrome with no visable grain at all!

 

What I thought might be a weld line could very well be where the tsuba was originally mounted before the mune machi was moved up as you suggest. That would make sense.

 

This is my first Nihonto so perhaps I was being a bit paranoid about it. I have a few shin-gunto in their original wartime polishes but they didn't help me much with trying to authenticate this sword.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Ben,

What I think:  The same' appears to be new and the tsuka-ito is poorly done or has been messed with (or both).  Someone has polished the habaki; I doubt that is the original patina.  Not sure one way or the other about the welded nakago but I am concerned by the way the yasurime have been messed with at the area that is suspect and also by those round spots in the possible weld that wouldn't have been caused by tsuba wear.  All together it comes across as something that was put together to sell, rather than something someone once cared for, and if there is a weld it has very low value.  You can do better than this.

Again, just what I think.  Others may know better than I.

Grey

[Bazza]

G'day Ben,

It all comes down to price.  This sword has already taught you what book learning couldn't.  As such, you've "paid for a tutorial" and got free opinions from experienced people here - that's what we are here for.  Welcome.  If you decide you want to stay the course with Nihonto you've had a good start. Your sword is at least real.

 

Your comment "and the shinogi-ji looks like chrome with no visable grain at all!" is exactly what the shinogi ji is supposed to look like - burnished.

 

The polish looks quite amateurish and if you know who did it do keep away from him/her/them.  No polisher of competence and proper training (6 years plus in Japan) would polish the filemarks.  I don't think the "weld line" is a weld at all, more likely a rust line from a previously placed habaki.  A weld would show "collateral damage" either side of the line with rust bursting off the surface leaving pits.

 

So, boiling it down, a real sword with real bits just pretty much thrown together and all it comes down to is price...

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Bazza has it right, Ben - no welding done. Take a close look at how the yasurime pass right through the vertical "weld" area. That's just not going to happen with a rewelded nakago. Very faint itame hada, & not a particularly good polish - I doubt it's muji hada. Remember that hada pretty disappeared as the Shinto period progressed, compared to Koto hada, where they could be used to identify Gokaden. Mekugi were chiseled, not drilled, which points to Koto, but the rest of the blade (sugata, hada, etc.) contradicts that. Too many strange characteristics for me to recommend your keeping this blade.

 

Ken

 

[BenVK]

The polish looks quite amateurish and if you know who did it do keep away from him/her/them.  No polisher of competence and proper training (6 years plus in Japan) would polish the filemarks. 

 

So, boiling it down, a real sword with real bits just pretty much thrown together and all it comes down to is price...

 

 

 

Thanks again guys.

 

Bazza, I put in a max bid of £750 and was surprised/anxious to learn that I was the only bidder. The alarm bells were going off but I feel you have to honour your bids don't you... With commission, VAT and shipping, it worked out to be around £950. I agree with you that I've "paid for a tutorial", it's been here for less than 24hours yet I've already learnt a great deal more than I knew before.

 

If the auction house will accept it back, I think I'd better return it.  Like you say Ken, it's a rather strange one and I'm not really digging it that much.

[pcfarrar]

If the auction house will accept it back, I think I'd better return it.  Like you say Ken, it's a rather strange one and I'm not really digging it that much.

 

What auction house did you buy it from as they generally don't accept returns. £950 isn't too bad in the UK, you should be able to trade it in at a militaria fair and get your money back.

[Stephen]

Buyers remorse strikes again!

[Marius]

The blade looks like it does show a very fine grain structure, which is hard to see unless the polish is very good.  

 

To me, it looks like a beautifully polished blade

 

 

I agree with Tim. 100%. 

[Taz575]

If the munemachi was relocated, might someone file/polish the yasurime down to have the habaki or other pieces fit farther forward?  Again, I see many tangs with some filing/polishing evidence on the yasurime areas, especially on cut down blades.  Some even have polishing done at the very top of Kiku and Mei!  These areas may be thicker and need to be thinned down a hair when relocating a munemachi or maybe its the displaced metal from chiseling that was smoothed out at one time so it wouldn't make a burr and scratch the other fittings? 

 

On my 1st Ebay Wak, the one many thought was a welded tang, has similar wear on the yasurime.  It looks like the munemachi was moved forward a bit and the thicker part of the nakago was at the yasurime, so maybe they were filed down a hair to let the habaki slip past farther up the blade since it was tightest at that point?  The yasurime on mine was checked at the Orlando Sword Show and determined to be legit and of a pattern heard about, but rarely seen and not an amateur hacking away at it as some had suspected.  Pictures can be very misleading!

 

The shiny spots could it be wear from a tight tsuka, tsuba, seppa, habaki sliding on and off the sword for cleaning possibly?  Look at the shinogi on the nakago, it has bright spots on it, too, so something was rubbing there at some point.

 

The mune area has a polishers signature and the lines look nice and crisp and even to me, which is generally accepted as the sign of a good polisher.  I can see a very very tight grain pattern in the pictures, something I wouldn't think I would be able to see with a poor polish?

 

The habaki doesn't look "polished" to me, but looks scuffed up and aged a bit with some wear to it.

 

From the Kiyomitsu I have researched quickly, the end of the nakago looks accurate, but I think they often worked in a coarser hada pattern that is more visible typically?  But there were lots of generations, so there would be variations, too.

 

It it was mine, I would keep it, study/research it, learn from it and move it on later if I got bored with it.  Not everyone needs a pristine, papered, all original Juyo piece to enjoy the sword.  I took a chance on a $400 rusty Ebay Wak with some flaws recently.  Everyone said it was junk, don't waste your time/money cleaning it up, etc because of the flaws it had.  In hand, I could see a lot of activity that the pictures couldn't capture.  I had a window polished and there is a ton of activity on the blade, which is why I got it in the first place.  I love blades with active hada/hamon/hataraki and this has all 3 and should be awesome when it's finished.   

 

You have the sword in hand and the question ultimately is:  Do YOU like it?  We all give comments based on what we see in the pictures, but from first hand experience, I know that the sword in hand can look completely different than the pictures actually show and often pictures don't do the sword justice.  I am new to this (a few months in) and I know what you are feeling.  Many more experienced people see this as a garbage sword and it makes you feel bad about your first purchase.  1)  It's a real Katana with some History 2)  Fittings look much better than some of the junkier ones I have seen, tsuka can be re wrapped (looks like they struggled with the thick menuki possibly?)  3)  To me, it looks like a nice polish, which can cost more than you paid for the entire sword.  I am using a large, 23" monitor at work and the hada is there, but incredibly fine according to what I can see with the picture that is around 16" wide on my monitor.  Viewing on a laptop, cell phone or tablet, it may be much harder to see the hada!  4)  It's not a Chinese knock off sword  5)  For $1050 USD for what seems to be a fully polished katana in Koshirae, I think you did extremely well and can overlook some flaws like the ito wrap not being perfect and some mystery behind the blade itself. 

[pcfarrar]

The jigane looks good, nice tight ko-itame with chikei. Wouldn't cost much to get the tsuka sorted in the UK either.

[BenVK]

Some more pics of the hada.

 

Do I like it? I wasn't too sure yesterday but yes, the more I study it, the more I like it.

Learning how to authenticate and identify these swords is difficult enough, learning how to appreciate what your looking at is a whole different challenge and I'm only just starting out on that road.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BenVK]

Buyers remorse strikes again!

 

There was a bit of that but the overiding feeling was one of being totally out of my comfort zone with this blade so I wasn't sure what to do with it. I'm glad I posted it here though, the advice is much appreciated.

[Hawley]

@ Ben van Koningsveld

 

PM send.

[SAS]

Seems like konuka hada in the middle picture of the last set, decent polish, though the burnishing has a lot of stop/start marks. For the price, i would be very pleased.

[Surfson]

My two bits on this sword.  1.  I like it - it's a solid samurai sword in good polish with quiet but enjoyable hamon and hada.   2. I agree with the Kaga/Kashu call, based solely on the shape of the nakago.  3.  I agree that the handle has been rewrapped a bit amateurishly.  4. The mounts are serviceable but don't add a lot of value to the piece.  5. I think you did fine on it.  Hey, if you are in the UK, now that the pound has dropped, it may even be worth 25% more than it was before the Brexit.  If you like it, even a bit, my advice is to keep it, study it, enjoy it, and when you are ready to move it on, you should have no problem getting more than your money out of it.  Often buyer's remorse is related to the cost justification rather than whether one likes the piece or not.  Just the polish alone would cost more than you paid for it.  Cheers, Bob

[BenVK]

Guys, you could tell me if I've re-wrapped the tsuka correctly?

 

It's my first ever attempt at doing this and I haven't worked out how to tie the knots yet but I think it's neater than before. The cord is tighter at least and will get even tighter because I wet it first. Not sure if that's the correct thing to do but it seems to be working.

 

I was surprised at how tricky it is to do this, looks easy in the youtube videos, but then again, nothing is easy with Japanese swords is it!?

 

 

[ggil]

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Tsukamaki-Thomas-L-Buck/dp/0984377956

 

Here you can learn the knots and use of folded up paper pieces that allow the silk to be shaped perfectly as it is done in high quality work. This book shows how to make your own ito with snake skin (or other pelts I'd imagine). I especially love when the Ito is made up of many smaller diameter ito threads). Nice looking hada on that blade.