Fake Type 95 Nco Swords

[John C]

#1 and #4 above are the same pic. My initial thought is fake. The Tokyo canon mark is not done well; the dimples on the tsuka are not correct, and the release latch is not at the right angle.

 

John C.

 

[Kantaro]

Thanks gentlemen!

 

Much appreciated.

 

(Found these good examples on the net to compare with:)

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Textbook fake with all the red flags.  For sale on ebay, not even going to post the link.

Don't even have to enlarge on each section of the sword.  I could see from the expanded shot that the haikan was mounted too far down the saya, for starters:

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm posting this one for those trying to learn to spot fakes.  It has several things right, which might tempt a new guy to fall for it, like:

- Serial number is posted cutting edge down as Tokyo blade should

- Latch is curved properly vs the angled bend you see on many fakes

- Suya and Kokura stamps aren't bad, in as much as you can see the Suya one

- Bohi beginning is a little sloppy but not bad

 

But other things are wrong, first of which, glaringly, is the brass tsuka!  These are often sold as a copper handled 95, but they are not.

Other issues:

- Tokyo stamp on blade is FAR too far from the serial number

- Bohi end is not shaped properly for a Tokyo blade

- Tokyo inspector stamp on fuchi is really bad

- Fine details of tsuka and tsuba dimples, seppa sculpting, kabutogane, are all course, flat; probably an attempt to make it look worn and used

- The tsuba has a dark coating to make it look aged

 

Photos at first glance

 

Zooming in for detail:

 

 

[vajo]

Bruce I'm not sure with this that is a fake. I would need better pictures.

From my point the nanako is not inverse which shows mostly fakes. The menuki looks sharp. The hi looks nearly correct. 

The number looks not bad.

The seppa has the original looking cherry blossoms on the rim.

The clipper looks authentic.

 

I'm not sure.

 

If its fake its one of the best fakes i saw so far.

Thanks a lot for showing it Bruce.

Really cool.

 

By the way i would not buy it because of its brass tsuka 

[Shugyosha]

I don’t know military blades but the kissaki geometry on this one looks a mile out and that would wave a red flag to me. 

[John C]

The menuki, screw, tsuka nanako, etc. are all the same color. Could it be aluminum painted gold-ish rather than brass? Looks like brass, however it would be crazy heavy. Too bad we can't weigh it.

 

John C.

[Scogg]

I agree about the kissaki, and I'm inclined to believe it's a fake... Although, fakes this good are concerning! 

Something to consider about 95 blade geometry is that there are reports that some Type32 blades were converted for 95 use. Allegedly they were reshaped and reformed to closer mimic the 95 specs. 

I have personally never seen an example of this - and I don't think this sword is one. But my point is: judging on blade geometry alone can be tricky.

This "brass tsuka" sword is one of those potential fakes that I'd really like to see in-hand.
Cheers,
-Sam

[vajo]

After looking deeper on PC on those pictures i go with Bruce its a total fake sword. But its a very good made. With some nice paint job it could fool me.

[Scogg]

Spotted on eBay. What are your thoughts on this one?

 

Looks right at a glance… Convincing even from afar. Then you dig a little deeper and see those oddly sized stamps (especially kokura cannonball stamp), and crusty looking tsuka. A funny looking washer on the mekugi. Also, it doesn't align with swords that I have listed with near serial numbers. 
 

The more I look the more it looks wrong. 

Beware!

-Sam 

[John C]

Agreed, Sam. The marks aren't even close; the bohi does not end in the correct shape, the tsuba is the wrong shape (should be flat where the center ridge is on that one); tsuka looks like brass rather than aluminum.

 

John C.

[Lewis B]

Looks like a wall hanger piece to me.

[Bruce Pennington]

Stamps are crappola, tsuka screws are wrong.  

 

The blade serial is stamped in the correct orientation (cutting edge up) for a Nagoya blade, but Nagoya stamped the saya throat numbers in the same manner - at the 'bottom' of the throat, with latch loop to the right:

Example Nagoya blade number

Note: Nagoya bohi normally are more tapered both at beginning and end, but there are some that show up with rounded beginning

 

Example Nagoya saya throat

Number at bottom when reading, latch loop to right

[robinalexander]

It's not worthy of being a wall hanger...very bad Chinese fake.

[Scogg]

I’ve actually seen this fake before, with identical serial numbers. Hard to know if it’s the same exact fake sword, or if there are many out there with the same number.  I suspect the latter. 

 

When I saw the thumbnail of the whole sword, I clicked to see if it was one I could catalog. So at first glance it fooled me! But only for a moment, until I saw the other photos and saw them full sized. 
 

Ive begun keeping a separate list of some of the regular fakes that I see too. 
-Sam 

[robinalexander]

For a laugh  ...... currently on Ebay, you just have to love the 'Description' of the sword.

[Scogg]

Just got done reading through this whole thread again. Quite eye-opening! There are a few of those brass handle examples in the earlier pages. 

One thing that I noticed in some of the early pages, something not otherwise mentioned as a "fake identifier" - is that some of the fake swords have a pretty steep / exaggerated IORIMUNE. And this feature is mirrored on the scabbard mouth. 

The ^ shape on some of these fakes is steep; while the genuine examples I’ve encountered it’s not. 

Just an observation that I'm curious if anyone else has noted. 
-Sam

 

Different fake sword’s saya below:

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice observation, Sam!  Had not picked up on that before.  Here's a Tokyo and a Nagoya, legit, for comparison:

[Conway S]

Here's an Iijima fake. It looks like one of the Polish copies:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235987551164

 

I did message the seller and I think they pulled the listing because it says "ended" as opposed to "sold."

 

 

 

 

 

[Frank]

Here's another one on dutch marketplace, the sarute too long, polished brass tsuba, kokura stamp looks funny, the inspection mark on the fuchi is a mess but on the blade it's half decent...and the bo-hi stops short, and somehow the screwhead looks too big? 

Edited Monday at 05:05 PM by Frank
Forgot one picture

[Scogg]

Here is one that was recently shared to the facebook military swords of Japan group. 

A tricky one, but look closely. Wrong tsuba for the #, wrong large sarute, mekugi in the pattern2 placement. I believe it may be a mix of real and fake parts.
 

What are your thoughts and observations?
-Sam

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Frank said:

bo-hi stops short

Good example Frank. To add to your point, the bohi is tapered whereas it should be rounded/squared for a Tokyo blade.

 

you will also see that the dimples in the white diamonds of the handle are punched rather than formed.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Scogg said:

thoughts

Sam, this looks like a legitimate copper handle NCO. I don’t know why it has a steel tsuba and field saya.  Maybe a personal modification or repair/replacement?

[Scogg]

I think the blade is real, but the heavily modified nature of the whole piece made me more suspect than hopeful. With the steel tsuba and very corroded clip, and the pierced ito with the mekugi like the pattern 2 transitional variants. The big exaggerated sarute is typical of many fakes too. 
 

I’m on the fence about a lot of it, primarily the tsuka/sarute. But you could be totally right; it could be an authentic but heavily repaired/modified example

[Conway S]

The tsuka looks copper to me with the asymmetric Ito wrap and an extra mekugi hole. The mistamped fuchi is seen on the coppers from time to time.
 

Conway

[Scogg]

Thanks guys. This one threw me for a loop. It helps to get some knowledgable views outside the peanut gallery that is Facebook 

 

Much appreciated, 

-Sam 

[TBSM]

Hello everyone, I am relatively new to Japanese swords and would greatly appreciate it if someone could inform me whether this sword is authentic or a high-quality replica.

[Rawa]

Serial number on this blade is made in funny way

[Scogg]

2 hours ago, TBSM said:

Hello everyone, I am relatively new to Japanese swords and would greatly appreciate it if someone could inform me whether this sword is authentic or a high-quality replica.

Hi Matei, welcome to the forum,
 

I am confident that the sword in your photos is a fake or a replica.
 

The telltale signs are the bohi terminating early, the indented rather than raised samegawa, the large sarute, and like Rawa said - the stamps on the blade and fuchi are a bit off. 
 

All the best,

-Sam 

[TBSM]

Thank you for your help! I am collecting European swords and would like to add some Japanese swords to my collection. I suspected something was unsual but I was unsure.