Changes in sori

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

if you ever tried to draw a 90cm blade for inspection you encounter a math problem in regards to blade length vs arm length. There exists a certain straight blade of length X where a man with arm length Y cannot draw it and maintain an attachment to the saya. Arm is not long enough to get it out. (One solution is to drop the saya or leave it with a retainer, but I think this is a Nanbokucho period enhancement). .

 

 

 

 

 

[Ruben]

 

 

 

Hi Gentlemen,

 

interesting examples :lol: .

 

The Hayashizaki Ryu I found is very intersesting, old lore and stylized.

Must say its hard to understand this kata in detail, even as a good swordsman, I am shure,... its an other tradition just.

I studied Musō Jikiden Eishin Ryū and also with a huge sword, we were forced to do it, that was not funny at all some times.

And it goes back to Hayashizaki interestingly, but thats long time ago.

Lets say good that it survived, there is I belive Hayashizaki´s sword as well.

I heared he himself was wearing his sword adge up first to take revenge for his fathers death, who nows?

 

Tanaka Sensei,... I don´t now

But he is showing some massive sword´s. lol

 

Sekiguchi Sensei is or was a good swordsman, no question.

His sword is soo huge for his size (hira-zukuri), that his saya´s get broken, it happens cause its difficult to handle.

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[george trotter]

I have been amazed by the video posted by Jacques (middle video) .

From the ease with which a man of "normal" height drew the extreme length katana (90cm?) from the saya, I'd say that I know too little about using a blade and all the variables involved to ever discuss blade length/sori/body height/arm length intelligently.

Having seen this video I have to say that a swordsman's physical characteristics do not seem to limit a blade, nor does the method of carrying/drawing, so I cannot really explain the reasons swords got longer/shorter and sori became torii/saki/koshi as I tried to do in this post and in the parallel post "stranger and stranger"...So I'll bow out now...gomen kudasaimasenka...I'll just read and learn :? (and stick to WWII gendaito).

PS. maybe it is as Jacques said earlier...just fashion?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Tanaka Sensei.

 

Fumon Tanaka and his daughter Midori don't have any legitimacy. Fumon Tanaka invented his résumé (not so rare in Japan)...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumon_Tanaka

 

ps you can see that the sword used by the Hayashizaki Ryu has a very little sori..

[Ken-Hawaii]

I have no comment on Tanaka sensei's legitimacy, but his style of nukitsuke (sword drawing) & noto (sword sheathing) was pretty darn interesting. In Musō Jikiden Eishin-Ryū iaido, we have a similar form of noto in a number of our waza, & I can see where both that technique & the rather extreme sori would allow a much longer blade than what I use (75 cm, toriizori). But our nukitsuke styles are so much different that a nodachi-type blade wouldn't be practical. One of our mid-level students is about 6'4", & he struggles with a 70-cm blade for our intermediate & advanced waza. Even after a couple of decades of MJER training, I still occasionally have blade-length-based problems with some Okuden (advanced) waza.

 

As Ruben pointed out, Hayashizaki Shigenobu started modern iaido only 450 years ago, in late Muromachi, & it's said that he used a very long blade. Unfortunately, no two scholars seem to be able to agree on exactly how long the hacho was, & the sori location & size also appear to be lost in time. However, his Hayashizaki-Ryu style used tachi, so it's likely that Hayashizaki also used one. Not long after, during the Sengoku period, iaijutsu blades were shortened and produced with less sori, & the katana became the weapon of choice. Then, with the Tokugawa Shogunate, major wars came to an abrupt end, & it seems that "fashion" took over as the main reason for blade sori changes, as mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, when swords were no longer the essential Samurai tools they had been. At least that's what I'm gathering from all the great input.

 

So, George, don't give up on this quite yet. I think we're moving towards some type of conclusion.

 

Ken

[Ruben]

Don´t speak nor understand much of Japanese language thanks to my lazyness, maybe someone can help out!?

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dsymby1wEs

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

in a tanto, a mete-zashi in this case, makes it easier to get at and draw the weapon. Form following function here it is clear they were thinking about the draw.

 

A mete-zashi tanto with its koshirae :

 

 

An other one

 

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/T1 ... 5699_E.htm

[cabowen]

I may well regret asking, but are you saying that all tanto with furisode nakago are mete-zashi tanto?

 

By the way, do you know how furisode nakago are made?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

 

Have a look at the tsuka and at its lenght. Do you think that a curved tsuka is possible ? If yes what could be the advantage bearing a tanto egde up ?

[Marius]

Weren't metezashi worn at the right side?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Weren't metezashi worn at the right side?

 

Yes and i think that the name is more in accordance with the manner of wearing rather other technical possibilities.

 

[Marius]

So it is the koshirae which makes a short sword a mete-zashi.Like in your pics Jacques.

[Jean]

No Mariusz, just google for mete-zashi, it is the way of wearing it, that is what is saying Jacques

 

In fact, our Japanese members could tell us the ethimology of the word.

[John A Stuart]

The reins of a horse are held in the left hand and because this type of configuration is drawn/used by the left hand and worn on the right or behind the back the name refers to this horsemans term. 馬手差 horse hand variation. John

[Jean]

Thanks a lot John

[Marius]

No Mariusz, just google for mete-zashi, it is the way of wearing it, that is what is saying Jacques

 

Jean,

 

I know, it is worn at the right side :-) This requires a different koshirae than for a tanto worn at the left. Tip: look at the kurikata and curvature of the saya and imagine placing it on your left side. You would end up with a tanto worn edge down, like a tachi:-)

[Jean]

John gave you the answer, Mariusz. It is due to the way the tanto is worn and not to the name of the koshirae.

[Marius]

John gave you the answer, Mariusz. It is due to the way the tanto is worn and not to the name of the koshirae.

 

Of course Jean :-) I understand. It is a short sword, worn at the right side, correct? That's where the name comes from. From how you wear it.

 

And, as such, it can be worn only with a specific koshirae :-) I was just pointing at this fact - you can't really take an ordinary tanto koshirae and wear it at the right side, as the kurikata would be in the wrong place.

[John A Stuart]

Of course, do you have to have kurigata on yoroidoshi saya? John

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

As the tanto is worn on the right side with the tip forwards, kurikata is at the same place, there is no need of a specific koshirae.

[Markus]

worn on the right side with the tip forwards, kurikata is at the same place, there is no need of a specific koshirae.

 

The "problem" is, that the metezashi was worn edge down. So it was not like a tanto worn at the left hip

pushed along the obi to the right hip. Thus it requires another kurigata and a kaerizuno.

 

[Eric H]

Metezashi per definition refers to the koshirae rather than to the shape of nakago.

Eric

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessa ... 7c2a3b437a

[Marius]

Eric,

 

is that a scan from Markus Sesko "Koshirae"?

[Eric H]

Yes, and the picture provided by Markus is from that article.

Eric

[John A Stuart]

馬手差 metezashi is as I explained. 馬手差 can only be migitezashi. I haven't heard the term. John

[Guido]

Although "migite" is the more common reading for 右手, both 馬手 and 右手 are pronounced "mete" in this context.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Markus is right , so i'm wrong on kurikata.. :?

[Darcy]

Metezashi per definition refers to the koshirae rather than to the shape of nakago.

 

I'd be in agreement, it's not a term to define a nakago shape but can be used to describe an intended use. The koshirae tends to make the intended use very explicit. And koshirae can change the intended use (that the smith intended) of a sword (to what the bearer intends).

 

The similar issue is with Naginata Naoshi / Nagamaki Naoshi ... is Nagamaki Naoshi or Nagamaki (with no koshirae) even acceptable (yes to some, no to others because Nagamaki refers to a type of koshirae.) There is an additional complication to a naginata naoshi in katana koshirae, is it a katana now? What if there is no koshirae at all? Sometimes the NBTHK writes these up as "katana" sometimes as "naginata naoshi." I haven't seen them use "nagamaki" though. Sometimes these things are a bit hard to find across the board rules that we can rely on.

 

Tachi too are based on use, which comes from the koshirae. But, if there is enough information remaining on the sword to (almost) positively affirm intended use then you can get a tachi description from it.

 

So... mumei but from the period and with nakago shape that fits intended use as a tachi, will be a tachi. Tachi mei and from the period where they were made, and with a reduced nakago you still have a tachi. I'm unsure about mumei (originally) with somewhat shortened nakago, where they will go. Maybe if the original mekugiana is still there and they can figure intended use from that. But O-suriage is now a katana even though it was made as a tachi.

 

Following is an example of a tanto that the NBTHK referred to as a possible metezashi but would need to go back to the original text to see if it was written as "used as" or "is". I have it somewhere I think if someone wants to read the Japanese. NBTHK is using the term as it would tachi or naginata, if there's enough on it to be used as intended and the intention can be understood then the term follows.

 

A side note that shape of the nakago (or the side of the mei) can indeed indicate the intended use of the tanto, and it may be the intended use of the tanto that we're trying to communicate about which eventually is the salient point.

 

Also this tanto creates a bit of disturbance in some of the stated periods of work in some of the proposed Awataguchi lineages.

 

Anyway the use that makes sense to me personally is in grappling. Considering tanto is for close quarters fighting and can (is to) be used during grappling, a left mount is impossible to reach if you are body to body, with your right hand. Right side in the front is better since you can get to it more easily, right hip even better as you can draw backwards unobstructed, right back hip is the best place to put it with the tsuka to the right. It allows for:

 

1. unobstructed access by you to your own weapon

2. obstructed access by the opponent to your weapon (harder for him to take)

3. if it is on the back of your right hip facing outwords you have an unobstructed draw if you are body to body grappling

4. you have options to draw point down from your fist and make for a stab from high to the neck or to the opponent's back if grappling

5. you have options to draw point up from your fist and make for a stab to the opponent's armpit, leg or groin

 

From a grappler's perspective, a right handed fighter is much better with his weapon in this position both offensively and defensively. But any right hand side mount is going to be better than left hand side if your intention is to have this as a last resort weapon if you are being grappled.

 

Curved nakago can make some particular draws and thrusts easier and I think is developed for this purpose. I don't think it is random, I think it is meant to suit the user's particular need for use.

 

Setsumei

 

Ubu, saki is a kurijiri with a touch of ha-agari, yasurime is kiri, two mekugi ana, on the sashi omote in the center below the mekugi ana there is [KOAN] JUICHINEN (1288) done with a thick tagane, and on the ura there, done in the same manner, there is GOGATSU TUITACHI (1st Day of 5th Month), dividing the date of manufacture between the omote and ura, and below that on the ura the maker's name is inscribed. This piece is tanto that should be judged as being by AWATAGUCHI KUNIMITSU, and has a date of manufacture of KOAN JUICHINEN GOGATSU TUITACHI (1st Day of the 5th Month of 1288). He (the maker) was a toko that was said to be the son of NORIKUNI and the younger brother of KUNIYOSHI, confirmed examples of work he left behind are rare, and besides this, there are but two Juyo Bunkazai tachi, and a ken which has SABEIJO (SABEJO) above his name, As for the portion of this tanto with the nijimei KUNIMITSU, commonalities with the Juyo Bunkazai can be seen. Furthermore, the beautiful points of Awataguchi works can be seen in the ji and ha, and nothing is of more value from a data standpoint the nenki of KOAN JUICHINEN. Because of the fact that the KUNIMITSU mei is cut on the sashi ura, there is the possibility that this is a METEZASHI [a tanto worn on the right side at the waist].

 

 

[Darcy]

Hi,

 

if you ever tried to draw a 90cm blade for inspection you encounter a math problem in regards to blade length vs arm length. There exists a certain straight blade of length X where a man with arm length Y cannot draw it and maintain an attachment to the saya. Arm is not long enough to get it out. (One solution is to drop the saya or leave it with a retainer, but I think this is a Nanbokucho period enhancement). .

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a math problem Jacques and your reading comprehension is not very good, so you should re-read the exact words and think about it before posting instead of just reacting. I realize I may have just made a "new best friend" out of you but I'd still like to discuss things with you like a normal person.

 

You're certainly not making any attempt to be a better board citizen either and it's disappointing.

 

The video is in no way inconsistent with what I said.

 

I never said drawing a 90cm blade is impossible. A non-practitioner handling an art sword begins to realize that there are distinct limits on drawing a big blade with such a thing. The limits are based on math.

 

You will never draw a 300cm straight blade for instance, to give you the obtuse example, from koshirae that you remain attached to (please again note the wording) and keep your hand on the tsuka. Hence there exists a limit based on your own size, and remaining attached to the saya, to a blade you can draw and keep your hand on the tsuka.

 

This limited is increased when the blade curves.

 

That's the point, the videos don't have anything to say to disagree with it but actually show that a great deal of technique and in fact a curved blade is in use for a small man to draw a long blade. So it more confirms what I'm talking about than anything else.

[Darcy]

Hi,

 

Ken

 

Fashion exists since the oldest times and for all that is human made. :|

 

It's probably a minor reason, because with weapons form follows function. Stealth bombers didn't come around because they were cool and looked good and served no particular purpose. Nor did machine guns come for the cool sound and we'd like to sound cool like that too, atom bombs for the bright flash, better keep up with the neighbors for the cool new look... or mustard gas, once you smell what your friend has you will want it too! Don't want to be seen with yesterday's outdated weapons, they will make you look silly.

 

Actually they will make you look silly but not because of change for the sake of change, but because they mark you as being ineffective on the battlefield. The kind of guys riding horses into battle with tanks for instance. Out of fashion or behind in development? Both, but really the second.

 

With Japanese swords the general rule is that form follows function rather than the other way around, though at times it did become inverted ("artistic" hamon of the shinto period for instance) these are outliers rather than the general evolutionary forces at work in weapons development especially with the Japanese sword.