Changes in sori

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Georgee,

 

Sori exists because it is more easy for a man on a horse to slash a foot soldier nothing else.

 

For the evolution i don't know but i have big doubt it was for practical use only.

I will love Mister Bowen provides us a proof of his claim.

 

 

 

I practice Kenjutsu iaijutsu and battodo for a long time (maybe Mister Bowen was not born when i began), i know exactly what is a sword and how to use it.

 

ps Kogarasu maru is not Koshi-zori....

[Ruben]

I practice Kenjutsu iaijutsu and battodo for a long time (maybe Mister Bowen was not born when i began), i know exactly what is a sword and how to use it.

 

ps Kogarasu maru is not Koshi-zori....

 

Of course you now how to use it, but it´s about fighting, the timing and emotions are real than!

And Kogarasu maru seems it has little of both Koshi zori and Saki zori and nearly straight in the middle!

 

And for shure not every Samurai knew how to use the two swords correctly, they also just went out and it was just a part of there uniform later.

Or one is so good that it does not matter what he uses to strike someone down, he even takes his brush.

 

ruben

[cabowen]

For the evolution i don't know but i have big doubt it was for practical use only.

I will love Mister Bowen provides us a proof of his claim.

 

The first swords brought from the continent were straight. It was the Japanese who added the sori. They did it for a reason. That reason has been discussed at length in the literature. In fact, the Sano Museum had an exhibit devoted to the development of the sword and the sori was a main theme. Too bad you missed it, you might have found it enlightening.

 

 

"Early Style of Japanese Swords-

A Search for The Origin of The Curve"

 

I practice Kenjutsu iaijutsu and battodo for a long time (maybe Mister Bowen was not born when i began), i know exactly what is a sword and how to use it.

 

 

Keep practicing..........

[Brian]

Ok, enough. Any further jabs at anyone from either side will be deleted.

 

Brian

[J Reid]

I still stand by what I originally said about location of sori having to do with the swordsmans reach, body type, and martial technique. I know that location of sori matters to me when I draw a blade.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The first swords brought from the continent were straight

 

It was during the Yayoi era, until sori was invented many water ran under bridge. and the first swords (tachi) with a sori were uchi-zori.

 

 

Mister Bowen,

 

I must admit i'm curious for knowing which change in swords fencing needs a change of the sori. Would you tell us something on this subject ?

[Lance]

Below is a link from another topic discussing the origins of straight swords used in Kendo, and the following post from Clive Sinclaire mentions what I thought was accepted thought on Kendo's influence on the shape of Kambun Shinto?

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/ ... 1&p=102674

 

Ruben

As I just returned from kendo about one hour ago, I thought I should attempt to answer your question, as I understand it.

"Modern" Kendo as we know it was started in 16th century Japan when the straight bamboo shinai largely replaced the swords of the estabished kenjutsu schools. This was so that technique and training could be done without causing severe injyury. At the same time kendo armour (doh, men and kote) were developed with the same objectives. It is said that the almost straight sword, tapering to a smallish point, was directly influenced by the popularity of the shinai. As this was mainly taking place in the Kanbun period (1662-1672) the "striaght" sword shape is known as the Kanbun sugata and is an easy jidai kantie point.

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

 

 

This appears in most books on Nihonto, granted the mid 1600's was relatively peaceful compared to just 75-100 years earlier , and other swords of this period were made with a more traditional sori during this period, but isn't it still an example of sori changing due to current demands of use at the time?

 

Regards,

Lance

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Below is a link from another topic discussing the origins of straight swords used in Kendo, and the following post from Clive Sinclaire mentions what I thought was accepted thought on Kendo's influence on the shape of Kambun Shinto?

 

Definitely no, Kendo did'nt exist at that time, and fukuro shinai was used (only by one Ryu ha) to replace bokken still too dangerous.

[kusunokimasahige]

Since sori is an inherent aspect of tempering the sword (albeit some will be slightly curved in theforging process), it is only natural that when smiths started to change their straight swords through a different process of hardening they became curved.

 

While it is true that shortening a sword will change its intended original sori it is by no means a deliberate aspect.

 

I am still of the opinion that sori aspects need to be seen in the usage of the blade as a weapon. It might be a beauty aspect but since swords only became "art swords" during the Edo period one should never forget their intended purpose.

 

KM

[cabowen]

Since sori is an inherent aspect of tempering the sword (albeit some will be slightly curved in theforging process), it is only natural that when smiths started to change their straight swords through a different process of hardening they became curved.

 

While it is true that shortening a sword will change its intended original sori it is by no means a deliberate aspect.

 

I am still of the opinion that sori aspects need to be seen in the usage of the blade as a weapon. It might be a beauty aspect but since swords only became "art swords" during the Edo period one should never forget their intended purpose.

 

KM

 

While yaki-ire will induce sori, smiths account for this as they did when choku-to (straight swords) were made. The hardening process is the same.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The hardening process is the same.

 

 

But not the result.

[cabowen]

Hi,

 

"The hardening process is the same."

 

But not the result.

 

Really? How so?

[Lance]

Hi,

 

 

Definitely no, Kendo did'nt exist at that time, and fukuro shinai was used (only by one Ryu ha) to replace bokken still too dangerous.

 

 

Hello Jacques,

Sorry, I should have written " Kenjutsu"

Quick reference from Wikipedia

"The earliest use of a bamboo weapon to train with instead of a sword is credited to Kamiizumi Nobutsuna (1508-1572?) of the Shinkage-ryū."

 

My point and what's usually mentioned is that Kambun Shinto shape was based on the bamboo shinai used in fencing schools, and became popular for a time as a fad of having a sword more similar in shape to what was used in practice.

 

Regards,

Lance

[Mark S.]

... and here is where a 'less learned member' dips his toe nervously into the discussion to ask a couple questions...

 

1) On the shortening of older blades, would sori be 'taken into account' in the final product, or was overall length the determining factor in an effort to match the 'standard of the day' or the particular 'wants' of the end user? Would older swords be excluded from the decision to shorten because the resultant sori (either 'depth' of the sori, and 'style'... or both) wouldn't quite match the accepted 'standard of the day'?

 

2) Maybe more of a theoretical question, but just how far 'out of standard' would a smith allow his sori before condemning a sword to the 'not up to my spec' bin? Obviously, Japanese smiths were masters at controlling the whole process of creating their blades, but I'm sure the quenching process is not a 'perfect' science and some variation in result was expected. Was the smith able to 'make up' enough with final shaping, or were there times where the examination of sori after quenching resulting in a "darn, not quite enough", or "too much"? Would a smith really not 'allow' a blade without the 'correct' sori out of his shop?... I suppose the simple answer might not be that far removed from modern times (and much less 'mystical')... "Could he still sell it the way it is?"

 

Sorry to take this back down to a 'basic level'...

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

My point and what's usually mentioned is that Kambun Shinto shape was based on the bamboo shinai used in fencing schools,

 

 

Fukuro shinai was used in a single school, All other schools (katori Shinto ryu for example) used bokken. Shinai became "popular" with the birth of "modern" kendo and was used only in this budo.

 

Really? How so?

 

How is the sori on a chokutô ?

 

 

Mister bowen, I'm stiil wondering where is the connexion between the Sasano book and the change of sori in the sword history ....

 

 

 

Back to the topic

 

Sori is not that easy to determine .... as i already said, man can find several sori in the same blade.

 

I will not ask what are the right fighting techniques which are at the origin of this blade :lol:

 

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

On the shortening of older blades, would sori be 'taken into account' in the final product, or was overall length the determining factor in an effort to match the 'standard of the day' or the particular 'wants' of the end user? Would older swords be excluded from the decision to shorten because the resultant sori (either 'depth' of the sori, and 'style'... or both) wouldn't quite match the accepted 'standard of the day'?

 

Do you mean that the sori was modified by the smith making the shortening ? If yes, it exists a tachi by Masatsune which is thought that the sori was intentionnaly reduced. I don't know if it was common, i don't think.

[chris covington]

Hello Jacques et al.,

 

Fukuro shinai was used in a single school, All other schools (katori Shinto ryu for example) used bokken. Shinai became "popular" with the birth of "modern" kendo and was used only in this budo.

 

I don't have a dog in this race but I do think your quote about shinai is a little off. Many koryu (pre-modern kendo) used various types of shinai. The Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu has a whole set called To-no-kata (also read shinai no kata, we use a type of fukuro shinai). This set of kata was developed by the 4th headmaster Ogasawara Genshinsai (1574–1644) when he returned from Beijing in the early Edo period. He had angered Tokugawa Ieyasu and was to be killed. He fled to Beijing to keep his head. When Ieyasu died Ogasawara sensei came back home. Maniwa Nen-ryu, a school that is even older than Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, adopted fukuro shinai into their practice. If memory serves I think Tatsumi-ryu uses fukuro shinai. Now of course there are different thoughts on the value to shinaigeiko vs katageiko (Nakanishi vs Terada, in Nakanishi's own dojo, for example) but that is an argument well beyond the scope of this forum and one that is about 400 years old at this point, so I doubt there will be any resolution anytime soon and certainly not here.

 

Cheers,

Chris

[kusunokimasahige]

Why the story about Ogasawara Genshinsai is a bit fishy. (this is not meant mean, please bear with me).

 

Ogasawara Genshinsai was sentenced to be killed and fled to Beijing and after Ieyasu's death returns to Japan and starts a fencing school.

 

Now why would that be far fetched.

 

Well, a few facts:

 

-A sentence of death was generally never revoked. In this case it would have been executed by the new Shogun and his officials.

-Japanese who left Japan were never allowed to return. It was an offense punishable by death under Tokugawa law.

 

Furthermore, especially people who were well known would be picked out by the Tokugawa Metsuke without hesitation. You could not even travel througout Japan (over the Tokaido and Nakasendo) without the proper passes.

 

Notwithstanding that there are several well known and esteemed Koryu schools and styles, there are equally as many nonsensical and exaggerated stories about their founders, styles, secret scrolls and what have you. It would always be prudent to take stories any Sensei of any style tells you with a pinch of salt, especially since we know quite a lot about Tokugawa history through documents and writings of the era itself.

 

KM

 

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=294

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Ok, two schools (even 10) among 200 or more at the end of the Muromachi era. :D

 

Maniwa Nen-ryu, a school that is even older than Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, adopted fukuro shinai into their practice.

 

 

Humm!! TSKSR was founded by Iizasa Choisei Ienao (1387-1488) and is the oldest school recorded in Japan, it has also the status of spiritual heritage of Japan. But why not ?

[Jussi Ekholm]

Very intresting discussion. As I personally like strong curvature in swords, sori has been one detail I've eyed a lot. With my limited knowledge I can only advice towards books. Sano museum exhibition that Chris Bowen mentioned must have been wondeful, as I've greatly enjoyed the catalog.

 

I would also recommend pages 259-450 of Yamanaka Newsletters book 2 (of the 4 book version), they include An Introductory History of the Japanese Sword and Identification of Nihonto through shape. My favorite parts of the books. Excellent info on the sori can be found in these pages. Also descriptions who preferred to make strong sori and who preferred shallow, some didn't make swords like the general "ideal" sugata of the certain time period.

 

Here are some descriptions about sori of various Kamakura era schools/smiths.

 

Ko-mihara: Tachi made in torii zori, though it has a slight "feeling" of having koshi zori.

Ugai Unji: The Tachi shape is made very firm and it has the sori accentuated towards the kissaki.

Osafune Sanenaga: Tachi is made with shallow sori and the width is made narrow.

Fukuoka Ichimonji school smiths Nobufusa and Nobukane made tachi in the shape of Ko Ichimonji, that is in the style of Heian Period with very high graceful sori with the mihaba not wide.

In history part true Bizen tradition blades are mentioned being koroai (just right), shape is never too curved. Length of the blade being 2 shaku 7-8 sun or little over with strong koshizori and with much fumbari.

 

So in those above there are koshi, torii and slight sakizori all within Kamakura era blades.

 

One thing to also consider is the actual amount of curvature, shaku radius. One very helpful leaflet would be W.M. Hawley - Curvature in Japanese Blades which discusses the shaku radius, I made bit longer post about that in this thread: http://nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/view ... &view=next

 

I would agree with Chris Bowen that the smiths knew exactly what they are making.

 

Placement and the amount of sori makes a huge difference on the handling of the sword. I don't draw or swing my nihonto but I've done a lot of that with Chinese made replicas of varying curvature and lengths. One thing that can fool the feeling of sori is nakago sori. Strongly curved nakago will affect greatly on your feel of the sword.

 

I have a Chinese made replica of Kogarasu-maru, it's the same 62,8 cm nagasa and has 1,0 cm sori, deepest point of the curvature is c. 29 cm from the munemachi. I also have a Chinese made replica of Bizen Tomomitsu Odachi, it's over 125 cm nagasa and I drew it from the hip (from my bit improvised tachi rig) to try it out. Of course physical limits apply, and when mounted in manner in which I can draw it from the hip, the saya will drag on ground once the sword is unsheated.

 

Hopefully in the future I'll get to handle a lot of nihonto of varying curvatures instead of mainly replicas. :D Didn't have much useful to add but I liked this discussion and tried to contribute in some way.

 

PS. Jacques posted a pic from this article, and I'll second the recommendation of reading the excellent blog post about Kamakura sword shapes by Markus Sesko: http://markussesko.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... de-shapes/

[Lance]

Hello Jacques,

Athough I don't consider myself super knowledgeable on the history of martial arts in Japan, I think the examples below give a decent examaple how 1 or 2 schools (sometimes even one man) could have enough influence in martial circles basied on the styles developed using Shinai to create what is considered classic Kambun Shinto

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkage-ry%C5%AB

 

Shinkage-Ryu

 

Shinkage-ryū (新陰流?) meaning "new shadow school", is a traditional school (koryū) of Japanese martial arts, founded by Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami Nobutsuna (上泉 伊勢守 信綱, 1508–1578) in the mid-sixteenth century. Shinkage-ryū is primarily a school of swordsmanship (kenjutsu and iaijutsu), and is a synthesis of Nobutsuna's studies in the schools of Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū, Nen-ryū, and Kage-ryū (Aizu)

 

 

Until Kamiizumi, swordsmen practiced their art with either a very hard wooden sword (bokken) or one with a dulled steel blade. Because of this, swordsmen had to stop their blows during training if they did not want to hurt themselves or their students or partners. Kamiizumi created a practice sword made of a length of bamboo, split two to 16 times on one end, and covered in a lacquered leather sleeve. He called this invention a hikihada shinai.

 

He did not have children and left all his property to his student Yagyū Munetoshi

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagy%C5%AB_Munetoshi

 

 

Yagyū Sekishūsai Taira-no-Munetoshi (柳生石舟斎平宗厳 1529 - May 25, 1606) was a samurai in Japan’s Sengoku period famous for mastering the Shinkage-ryū school of combat, and introducing it to the Tokugawa clan.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itt%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB

 

Ono-ha Ittō-ryū

 

Ono-ha was founded by Ittosai's immediate successor, Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki (1565–1628), from whence the name of the art is derived. Oral tradition indicates that Ittosai made Tadaaki fight a serious duel with another student, Zenki, in order to establish a successor to the style. Serving as an instructor to both the second and third shoguns, along with Yagyū Munenori of the rival school the Yagyū Shinkage-ryū, Tadaaki was able to continue to give his art wide exposure. It was said that Tadaaki was Munenori's superior in swordsmanship, but that his severe character led him to be the less favoured and respected of the two.

 

Known as a dueling style which focused upon the sword rather than a more multifaceted, multi-weapon, battlefield style, Ono developed a mock sword (see: shinai) in order to reduce training injuries and allow more committed fighting practice.

 

 

There's an earlier pioneer, and two schools that were official teachers for the Tokugawa using Shinai in their teachings, and all the wealth-influence-power-pretige that being sponsored by the Tokugawa brings.

Considering all of the above and the way the Shogunate influenced Edo period tastes country-wide overall provides a very reasonable timeline that fits well with the established idea of the origin of Kambun Shinto sugata inflenced by Shinai and sword schools of the time.

 

Regards,

Lance

[chris covington]

Henk-Jan,

 

I would agree that one should take a lot of budo history with a grain of salt. I have often heard historians and researchers face great problems when dealing with koryu. If someone from outside the ryu attempts to research it they will run into stumbling blocks because key information is withheld from outsiders. On the other hand when someone from inside the ryu attempts to research it they are presented much more information but the source is obviously colored by the ryu. Some information is a matter of faith as being part of a ryu. Like Shindo Muso-ryu founder Muso Gonnosuke beating Musashi in a duel, even though that story is only found in their own Shindo Muso-ryu records. I guess if we believed every story about a ryu we'd all be hanging out in the woods looking for tengu to teach us

 

Jacques,

As for Katori Shinto-ryu being the oldest koryu I have heard this many times. Nen-ryu was founded in 1368 20 years before Iizasa was born. If we take into account the kaden of a ryu Kashima Shinto-ryu might be even older than Katori Shinto-ryu or Nen-ryu. I can see in your signature though that you are a Katori Shinto-ryu swordsman. As above it is part of our faith as a member of a ryu to believe what we do about our own school. With that being said I still believe that Ogasawara sensei went to China to avoid the Tokugawa and when he returned he brought with him inner secrets that I continue to study to this day

 

Ok, two schools (even 10) among 200 or more at the end of the Muromachi era.

 

Your original quote was about only modern kendo using shinai and it said nothing of eras other than modern kendo (I am assuming you mean modern kendo from the Meiji era as we know it today?). I gave three examples of old koryu that implement shinai besides Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. If we look at Edo period ryu we will find even more.

 

I think we have hijacked this thread a bit and turned it into a kenjutsu thread. Maybe we should continue our conversation somewhere else and give the thread back to the people who started it?

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Lance,

 

I have the book "Heihô Kadensho" written by Yagyû Munenori in my Library

[cabowen]

... and here is where a 'less learned member' dips his toe nervously into the discussion to ask a couple questions...

 

1) On the shortening of older blades, would sori be 'taken into account' in the final product, or was overall length the determining factor in an effort to match the 'standard of the day' or the particular 'wants' of the end user? Would older swords be excluded from the decision to shorten because the resultant sori (either 'depth' of the sori, and 'style'... or both) wouldn't quite match the accepted 'standard of the day'?

 

2) Maybe more of a theoretical question, but just how far 'out of standard' would a smith allow his sori before condemning a sword to the 'not up to my spec' bin? Obviously, Japanese smiths were masters at controlling the whole process of creating their blades, but I'm sure the quenching process is not a 'perfect' science and some variation in result was expected. Was the smith able to 'make up' enough with final shaping, or were there times where the examination of sori after quenching resulting in a "darn, not quite enough", or "too much"? Would a smith really not 'allow' a blade without the 'correct' sori out of his shop?... I suppose the simple answer might not be that far removed from modern times (and much less 'mystical')... "Could he still sell it the way it is?"

 

Sorry to take this back down to a 'basic level'...

 

Good questions, don't worry.....

 

Hard to say how much sori was taken into account when shortening blades. I have seen shortened blades of widely varying type and amount of sori. I would guess that the length of the shortened blade was the first priority.

 

As to your second question, a smith would adjust the sori of a blade after quenching if it wasn't quite what he wanted. There are ways to do this within a certain range.

 

Like I said, smiths paid attention to sori and it was a conscious choice with type and degree part of the plan.

[Lance]

Hello Jacques,

 

Any chance of a mini review of the book? Does it deal with actual swordfighting techniques or is it more philosophical like Hagakure?

Below is a link for "The Sword and the Mind by Yagyu Muenori, same book or in any way related?

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Mind-Ya ... 4+Kadensho

 

Regards,

Lance

[Jacques D.]

Lance,

 

It is this one :

 

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Giving-Sword ... ving+sword

 

Technical but with the old Japanese understanding (like Go-Rin-no-Sho).

[Lance]

Thanks Jacques, I'll have to put it on my book list and check it out.

 

Regards,

Lance

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hard to say how much sori was taken into account when shortening blades. I have seen shortened blades of widely varying type and amount of sori. I would guess that the length of the shortened blade was the first priority. As to your second question, a smith would adjust the sori of a blade after quenching if it wasn't quite what he wanted. There are ways to do this within a certain range. Like I said, smiths paid attention to sori and it was a conscious choice with type and degree part of the plan.

 

I agree with your comments, Chris, & as the OP, am wondering if you have any thoughts on whether changes in the laws in Japan on ever-shortening blade lengths were an important reason that blade sori evolved?

 

I'm including an excerpt from an interesting paper I read a few years ago (http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/4129/1/4129_1648.pdf?UkUDh:CyT) regarding how long a legal blade could be:

 

Sword Length Prohibitions

 

The early regulations relating to the length of blades have been mentioned, several attempts were made at reducing the number of sword wearers, as will now be seen:

 

In the second year of Kencho (1250), Hojo Tokiyori prohibited ordinary people from carrying long swords. This regulation was enforced by Akashi Kanetsuna, since then, common people and all priests carried long Kogatana called Wakizashi no Tachi.

 

In Tensho XVI (1588), Hideyoshi made a proclamation to obtain from common people the surrender of their swords. Being a cunning man, he announced that it was his intention to build a Daibutsu Temple in Kyoto, and that he required thousands of nails, and he wished people to hand over their swords so that they might acquire merit towards a future life by stopping their earthly fights and contributing towards a religious cause. But people were less interested in a problematic paradise than in actually protecting themselves, and they did not rise to his bait.

 

In Genna VIII, the Shogun Tokugawa Iyetada prohibited common people from wearing swords to avoid brawls; the Tachi was called then O Wakizashi.

 

In Kwanyei XVII (1640), Tokugawa Iyemitsu prohibited the attendants of Bujin from carrying tachi.

 

In Kwambun X (1670), Tokugawa Iyetsuna issued a regulation making the length of tachi 2'8"-9", and o-wakizashi 1'8", and anyone carrying a longer sword was liable to punishment.

 

In Tenna III (1683), Tokugawa Tsunayoshi reiterated the prohibition to common people to wear the long sword, but allowed them to carry a tanto; musicians and painters, even when of the Samurai class, were debarred from carrying a big sword.

 

In Kwansei X (1798), it was decided that any sword exceeding 1'8" should be termed Naga Wakizashi, and anyone carrying such a sword was liable to punishment. Later, the length was reduced to 1'5".

 

Finally, in Meiji IX (1877), the Haitorei was issued prohibiting the wearing of swords, except the one sword belonging to soldiers and police when in uniform.

 

Reading all of these changes makes me wonder how we can find long blades these days, especially ones with large sori! It almost makes me think that swordsmiths made a lot of their income from shortening blades.

 

Ken

[cabowen]

Ken-

 

I really can't imagine that shortening blades had much impact on how smiths made new blades. A large number of these regulations were aimed at merchant and lower classes, not samurai classes- these people were not professional warriors and likely didn't have the same level of training. I doubt they were as skilled and as tuned in to their swords as the samurai were, in general. I doubt the sori of a shortened sword had as much meaning to these people as it would have had to samurai.

[ownaSadayoshi]

I read somewhere discussing the differences between straight swords and curved swords that it takes much more precision on the part of the wielder to manipulate a straight sword than a curved sword to strike vital areas. I would assume (don't say it) that having a curved sword allowed for less mastery and allowed a less skilled user to be better in battle. It may have played a part to the evolution from straight to curved initially. I mean people had been using straight swords for hundreds of years before the change occurred. No doubt that the changes in time after the first curved sword were all related to horseback, foot solider, quick draw, tempering, polishing, preference and a host of other factors. Perhaps someone with more knowledge in the use of curved versus straight could enlighten us, as I am only repeating what I read.

 

John...