Changes in sori

[george trotter]

I have a comment that may be relevant to sword shape/length/sori and the particular school and kata style its owner may have belonged to, and I am talking about a swordsman who used his sword for life and death struggle, not just as an exercise...perhaps someone can comment on this sword in a practical way and on the school (is it still existing?) and thereby comment on the shape/length/sori in regards to the needs of battle.

Look at the pics.

A modern sword 1944.

Uchgatana mounts. Sue-Seki Mino den of Zenjo Kanetsune - Kanesada line style.

Blade nagasa 62.1 cm; Machi 3.25 cm; Yokote 2.0 cm: Sori 1.5 cm torii (with slight sakizori?): Motokasane 8mm: Sakikasane 6mm.

 

The inscription on the nakago says the sword was made in Tokyo by "Seisui" (pure water pool) and there is a kata? inscribed next to the mei "One step forward stab, one step forward slash".

From this I think that the owner/maker was proficient in the sword arts, possibly in the Seisui Ken Kenjutsu Ryu (one long flowing formal exercise of a series of Itto Ryu Kenjutsu kata (I think?)) which was taught at the Officer Training course at Toyama Military Academy for a time during the military era 1933-1945 until they went back to the Gunto Kata (individual separate kata). It is thought Seishin Hamada, Kenjutsu Itanshi of Butokuden, Kyoto, was the originator.

 

I ask this question because this sword seems linked to this style and I would like to know more about this style and its history from the knowledgeable swordsmen here. These together may help the discussion on the need (or not) of changing a shape/length/sori to suite a style of use.

Regards,

(If this hijacks the thread or is too off-topic, MODS please delete)

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I really can't imagine that shortening blades had much impact on how smiths made new blades

 

Keichô Shinto swords are good examples.

 

 

A large number of these regulations were aimed at merchant and lower classes, not samurai classes-

 

The Tokugawa rules are promulgated for all the people primarily the samurai class. It was the only way to keep the country peaceful.

 

these people were not professional warriors and likely didn't have the same level of training

 

Not true for the Sengoku jidai.

[george trotter]

Hi Jacques,

as a swordsman since long before Chris was born, can you comment on my information please...I am no expert but I think the information and pics I have provided would be a prime opportunity to demonstrate the pro and con points of the "sori is the result of use" theory...I rely on people like you with expert knowledge of swords, sword use and martial school histories.

Thanks...

[cabowen]

Me:

I really can't imagine that shortening blades had much impact on how smiths made new blades

 

Jacques:

Keichô Shinto swords are good examples.

 

Not relevant. You misunderstood. My point was that smiths did not make new swords with concerns about what they would then be like if/when shortened.

 

 

Me:

A large number of these regulations were aimed at merchant and lower classes, not samurai classes-

 

Jacques:

The Tokugawa rules are promulgated for all the people primarily the samurai class. It was the only way to keep the country peaceful.

 

Not true. Try rereading the previous post:

 

Sword Length Prohibitions

 

The early regulations relating to the length of blades have been mentioned, several attempts were made at reducing the number of sword wearers, as will now be seen:

 

In the second year of Kencho (1250), Hojo Tokiyori prohibited ordinary people from carrying long swords. This regulation was enforced by Akashi Kanetsuna, since then, common people and all priests carried long Kogatana called Wakizashi no Tachi.

 

In Tensho XVI (1588), Hideyoshi made a proclamation to obtain from common people the surrender of their swords. Being a cunning man, he announced that it was his intention to build a Daibutsu Temple in Kyoto, and that he required thousands of nails, and he wished people to hand over their swords so that they might acquire merit towards a future life by stopping their earthly fights and contributing towards a religious cause. But people were less interested in a problematic paradise than in actually protecting themselves, and they did not rise to his bait.

 

In Genna VIII, the Shogun Tokugawa Iyetada prohibited common people from wearing swords to avoid brawls; the Tachi was called then O Wakizashi.

 

In Kwanyei XVII (1640), Tokugawa Iyemitsu prohibited the attendants of Bujin from carrying tachi.

 

In Tenna III (1683), Tokugawa Tsunayoshi reiterated the prohibition to common people to wear the long sword, but allowed them to carry a tanto; musicians and painters, even when of the Samurai class, were debarred from carrying a big sword.

 

Me:

these people were not professional warriors and likely didn't have the same level of training

 

Jacques:

Not true for the Sengoku jidai.

 

Quite true. Most of the fighting during the Sengoku jidai was done by ashigaru whose primary weapon was a spear, not a sword. They weren't professionally trained swordsman/warriors like the samurai who were raised with swords in their hands from birth. They, and their weapons, were expendable cannon (teppo) fodder.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

In Genna VIII, the Shogun Tokugawa Iyetada prohibited common people from wearing swords to avoid brawls; the Tachi was called then O Wakizashi.

 

In Kwanyei XVII (1640), Tokugawa Iyemitsu prohibited the attendants of Bujin from carrying tachi.

 

In Tenna III (1683), Tokugawa Tsunayoshi reiterated the prohibition to common people to wear the long sword, but allowed them to carry a tanto; musicians and painters, even when of the Samurai class, were debarred from carrying a big sword.

 

Are you sure your source is reliable ? Tokugawa Iyetada never existed. I would add at that time some common people were permitted bearing a sword (makizashi) it is why we can see many wakizashi with a nagasa of around 55cm.

 

You should read more serious historical books.

 

Have a look at Myôji Taitö.

[Jean]

Iyetada=Hidetada, I presume, in the same way as Makizashi=wakizashi?

[Geraint]

Ah, Jean. Oil on troubled water?

[cabowen]

Iyetada=Hidetada, I presume, in the same way as Makizashi=wakizashi?

 

 

Picking at a typo isn't much of a rebuttal....but since I had low expectations, it's no surprise.

[Jean]

It was just an inquiry

 

Edit to add, I remember a post where I kept writting "suguta" or decades ago, writting "Démosthène" instead of "Thémistocle", these are things which happen.

 

But I'd rather like you all to continue this debate which is very interesting.

[george trotter]

But I'd rather like you all to continue this debate which is very interesting.

 

Me too. So, in the topic of sori change I ask again of the sword users here who have already made interesting comments on the use of swords and sori in the various schools of sword use, can you comment on my query above please? Jacques, you said you have used swords for many many years and as you have disputed many comments here on the reasons for sori and length of blades etc. I would expect you to comment for sure.

Maybe I can kick it off by saying that when a sword teacher held my sword he said he preferred a 70+ cm blade with a longer tsuka (my tsuka is 26 cm for a 62 cm blade). The only longer type tsuka I have seen are on the long straight blades of late Edo period, so for him to say this, he is in fact saying that his style of fencing requires certain dimensions, including blade length (and sori?) and tsuka...therefore is the style of use what determines the sori/length etc?...or is it just personal preference or body size etc?

 

Taking this back to my sword, I am wondering if the fencing style of Seisuiken Ryu demands that the sword used is this type shown by my sword? As it is similar to the style of uchigatana used in the Sengoku by ashigaru (and the fighting of WWII was about the same for foot soldiers), has this type of fighting (after 400 years) again demanded the dimensions of the sword I show (with maybe less, or no, sakizori now as the quickness of the draw is no longer a critical point, and the way of carrying has changed).

Since some swordsmen here are very definite about the cause of sori, length change etc I would like to hear your comments please. For example, did sori change when in a time of actual use in combat and then change again in time of peace when sword use was a "recreation" only? Is one type sword sori/length etc tied exactly to periods of intense combat and another type tied to periods of intense peace?

Thanks,

[John A Stuart]

It seems to me that it is a combination of factors. What does the style dictate? Iai dominate styles would need a sword length ideal for arm length and weight for fast nuki with a sori moderated to kiriwaza in one fluid motion. Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu tecniques are with the sword already drawn and based on engaging subsequently. The sword must be of a weight that can be wielded one handed efficiently. Kage ryu uses some chosun blades. Yanagi ryu draws into mengiri and can be straighter and longer. All in the ryu or ryuha, stature and strength. When adept the perfect sword will be found to match the power band, so to speak. John

[george trotter]

Ah, thanks John san. I don't want to jump to conclusions of course, but it seems from what you say that the style of use determines the sori/length. If this is so (and it seems logical to me for sure) then the early comments in regard to this question were correct...the style of use determined the sori, (as in horseback fighting became ground fighting etc and the method of carrying and drawing the sword changed). I think it would be safe to say also that these changes required the shorter blade, so it could be said that again, use determined length, so suriage resulted.

I would think then that time of war produced a warriors blade and time of peace produced a "dilletantes" blade :lol:

 

On the question of my sword dimensions/sori/length etc I'd really like to hear anything you know about the Seisuiken Ryu at Toyama Academy.

Thanks John.

regards,

[John A Stuart]

I have familiarity with Toyama ryu by Nakamura sensei and his Nakamura ryu. I haven't heard of Seisuiken Ryu being Toyama derived, so, can't comment on it at all. Seisui no Ken, maybe? Itto ryu derived, flowing water sword? Something in the back of my mind about this. Sorry. John

[george trotter]

I think you have it correctly John.

I think it was/is Seisui no Ken Ryu. It was derived from Itto Ryu, not, as you correctly say, from Toyama Ryu.

It was taught at the Toyama Academy for a time (somewhere in the war years?) but was discarded for a return to Toyama Ryu (as being too long and involved for gunto?).

I have just picked up these snippets from on-line sources...I am hoping the knowledgeable among the swordsmen here will be able to help, and also comment on the sori/length question.

I would also find it interesting (and relevant) if they could comment on the dimensions of my sword in comparison to their own sword use experience.

Thanks John,

Regards,

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

FWIK Seisui-no-ken is a kata, not a ryu.

[Ruben]

I have just picked up these snippets from on-line sources...I am hoping the knowledgeable among the swordsmen here will be able to help, and also comment on the sori/length question.

I would also find it interesting (and relevant) if they could comment on the dimensions of my sword in comparison to their own sword use experience.

Thanks John,

Regards,

 

Dear George,

 

what you don´t want in Iai for example, or rarly seen is sword´s with "too much" Sori.

It becomes little hard to make "noto", especially a deep torii Sori would be hard.

Of course its possible, but it will result in some little diffrent motion.

 

You have to ask your self, what is a good technic and why, hard to answear though...

There is so much out there, and also much crap.

You must find out your self, as it is in every martrial art.

90% of the people claiming to be someone and knowing somthing, but if you bring them in a situation were they must show ....

 

Regarding your sowrd, it is very short.

I´am pretty shure it is intended for one hand use/ as well or the soldier was just a short person. I would use it as shoto, but I´am 188cm.

 

I think sword drawing comes interesting after a length of 75-80 cm Nagasa.

Everything under it is not a big deal, possible with bad technic as well.

When it comes to 90cm plus, just the arm length is not enough, you will understand to use your hip more. (Tai Sabaki)

 

Greetings

 

ruben

[george trotter]

Hi Ruben,

Yes, my friend the sword teacher also said it was too short (he is about 188cm also).

Yet it is interesting that in the two periods (Sengoku and Meiji-Taisho-Showa) when swords were desperately needed for ground combat, they became short (55cm-65cm)...and in the two periods when they were not desperately needed (Edo and Showa-Heisei) they became long again (70cm-80cm) . This must mean something?

 

Jacques, can you say which Ryu the Seisui no Ken kata belongs to?

 

Interesting.

[cabowen]

 

...therefore is the style of use what determines the sori/length etc?...or is it just personal preference or body size etc?

 

 

I think it only logical to believe that both play a part.

[chris covington]

Mr. Trotter,

 

I don't think I have been studying as long as Jacques but I have been studying budo for 27 years and koryu budo for 16 years so maybe my opinion will have some value (it is worth at least what you pay for it ). Seisui no ken is said to be a modern kata created from Itto-ryu. The only video I have seen of someone doing this kata is on a Dentokan website (a modern American form of aikijujutsu/aikido). It does not look like any school of Itto-ryu I am familliar with (bottom of the page: http://www.dentokanhombu.com/2.0/waza.htm).

 

It is sometimes hard to pin down certain sayings to a single ryu (although not impossible). I looked it up on E-budo and someone mentioned it in a post over there. He believes it is an Itto-ryu saying which would match up with the Seisui no kata origin. I have a friend who is an Itto-ryu swordsman and I will ask him if he has heard of this.

 

Best regards,

Chris

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that info. I tried to open the video but for some reason - no luck.

I look forward to hearing what your friend has to say.

Maybe it is a kata drawn from Itto Ryu...I ask, in the video, what is the sword like? Any obvious connection with mine? Sori? Length?

Thanks for your comments,

Regards,

[chris covington]

Mr. Trotter,

 

From what I saw of the video it doesn't look much like Itto-ryu but I'm not an Itto-ryu guy (I was lucky enough to take a weekend seminar with Sasamori sensei the headmaster of Ono-ha Itto-ryu but that's it). The gentleman in the video does not use a real sword but what looks like a standard Kendo kata bokuto.. I'll keep you posted when I get a reply from my friend. I just texted him a few minutes ago. He is on the West Coast and I'm on the East Coast so he might not be awake yet

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

...therefore is the style of use what determines the sori/length etc?...or is it just personal preference or body size etc?

 

 

Don't forget fashion....

[Ken-Hawaii]

Don't forget fashion....

 

Groan!! Please don't tell me that there were Kardashian & Cyrus equivalents back in Edo that determined sori, length. etc.

 

Ken

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Ken

 

Fashion exists since the oldest times and for all that is human made. :|

[chris covington]

Mr. Trotter et al.,

 

I spoke with my friend regarding Itto-ryu and the so called Seisui no ken. His conclusion is about what mine is, it has no relationship to Itto-ryu. He is also skilled in Toyama-ryu and observed it has nothing in common with Toyama-ryu. I have a feeling the Seisui no ken is a modern kata made up by Westerners with a fabricated history (something very common in modern American budo schools). That isn't to say it has no value just that it has nothing to do with Japanese swordsmanship. As for the "Ippo susumite tsuki, Ippo susumite tatsu" phrase, that doesn't seem to appear anywhere in Itto-ryu documents that he is aware of or can find in any of his references.

 

Up until the founding of the gunto soho (the methods for using the shingunto) the Toyama academy taught a system of fencing with a kyugunto that more resembled western saber fencing than anything Japanese. A small manual called "Kenjutsu Kyohan" was published for training and a translated copy can be found online here: http://kenshi247.net/blog/2010/04/12/kenjutsu-kyohan-part-1-guntojutsu/ .

 

One person has suggested that the phrase might come from karate and is simillar to the phrase "ippon kumite tsuki, ippon kumite tatsu." I know karate was VERY popular from the Meiji era through the war years. I don't know enough about karate history to say though.

 

I'm sorry this doesn't help you identify the owner or the system of swordsmanship he studied but maybe it keeps you from barking up the wrong tree at least?

 

Best regards,

Chris

[george trotter]

Thanks Chris,

I appreciate you and your colleague's feedback. That is an interesting publication and I can see the one-hand style.

I at last found my notes on this matter and I think you are correct as the discussion is a series of articles by some Americans on a form of Jujitsu (I think) and they founded this school in 1994.

They do however discuss a sword kata as being the Seisui no Ken invented by Seishin Hamada who was a proponent of Itto Ryu. It was (it appears) invented in modern times (Taisho-Showa) and was practised for a time by Seishin Hamada and then his son Tenshin Hiroyuki Hamada, but being very long it was replaced by the Toyama Ryu form (so maybe not taught at Toyama, but superceeded by the Toyama Ryu ...duhh).

Maybe this history is all invented as you say as it seems to follow your comments quite closely.

(have a look: http://www.dentokanhombu.com/2.0/history.htm and scroll down to an article "The Practice of of Iaijutsu within the Dentokan").

I think you might be correct on the truthfullness of the history as the site was in the US as you said...maybe they "invented" the history?

I'll just have to keep searching for my tosho Seisui and not worry too much about such an association...the "Ippo..." kata may just be a coincidence and just be a patriotic slogan...in the meantime I guess I'll just have to live with not knowing for sure.

Maybe the smith just waxed lyrical and named himself Seisui for this or for a special few "special order" swords (and mounts) and I just "wished" it was linked to the Seisui no Ken (thinking it was WWII) because of the smith's Gago.

I appreciate all members comments here and am sorry it didn't add to the sori-length change debate.

regards,

[Darcy]

Deep curve in the area of a nakago does a few (objective) things and I think helps answer some questions.

 

1. in a tanto, a mete-zashi in this case, makes it easier to get at and draw the weapon. Form following function here it is clear they were thinking about the draw.

 

2. if you ever tried to draw a 90cm blade for inspection you encounter a math problem in regards to blade length vs arm length. There exists a certain straight blade of length X where a man with arm length Y cannot draw it and maintain an attachment to the saya. Arm is not long enough to get it out. (One solution is to drop the saya or leave it with a retainer, but I think this is a Nanbokucho period enhancement).

 

3. there exists then a borderline blade where one can just get it out, but in order to do this you need to maximize the distance from the mouth of the saya to your hand this necessitates breaking your grip with the lowest fingers of your hand (or your wrist joint), and the longest possible blade you can draw you would be holding between finger and thumb joint. If you curved the nakago though your lower fingers would still be grasping the tsuka.

 

4. now, perform this exercise. Place the first two fingers of your left hand like they are a nakago into the palm of your right hand, palms facing down. Extend both arms in front of you to maximum extension. This is about the length you'd be hitting of a max length blade to draw. Push them as far out as possible and release. Note the shape of your left arm (straight) and your wrist joint and fingers. You just traced out koshi zori. Especially while your fingers are being held by your right hand. Basically koshi zori allows you to maintain full control of the nakago of a longer blade than you can draw otherwise with a straight nakago from the edge down position.

 

5. thus, adding curvature to the nakago to an otherwise perfectly straight blade allows you to draw and use a longer blade. And we know they were thinking of draws with the mete-zashi tanto.

 

So when we look at evolution of sori we (in my opinion) need to not start from the first curved blades but we need to look at the first straight blades and see where the areas of experiment were. In my opinion the curve begins arriving as a practical feature to assist the draw and thus allow the user to have a longer sword than the opponent, a longer sword being seen as an advantage where you can strike and not be hit at a certain distance.

 

Another aspect of the curved nakago becomes evident in two areas:

 

1. an extended blade, a curved nakago braces against the lower forearm and wrist in a one handed position (horseback) which may be more secure for certain moves.

 

2. vs. a straight sword, the blade will be further away from the target in the same arm position. This means when rotating the arm through a strike, the sword with a curved nakago will strike later, giving the user more time to accelerate the blade, and this striking at a higher speed. Higher speed, more energy, more force, more damage. The more you curve that blade back the more stroke you will make in time for impact. If you are looking for impact only and not considering slicing (and straight european blades can easily hack off a limb without any curve at all), then a straightish monouchi is perfectly fine and in fact may convey more force at impact than a curved blade (which will slice more).

 

So four distinct advantages arrived from a koshi zori blade with deep curvature at the nakago. In my opinion then this is why the curved blade arrives.

 

1. you can draw a longer blade

2. longer blade means you can cut and not be cut, and furthermore generates more energy at the impact point (one reason why tennis serve is 160mph and baseball pitch is 95mph)

2. you can brace it against your forearm for more control in some instances, as well as less tiring on the small muscles of your arm

3. arm rotates longer before impact given the same start position, which increases the energy that can be stored in the sword at the time of impact, for more impact force

 

The rest of the story is one of refinement of the curve for various needs (on or off the horse, increased slicing vs. just impact, etc). Moving the curve up the blade from the nakago area increases the ability of the blade to cut vs. chop. Once the theory is introduced that some curve is beneficial, it's natural that through trial and error with a mindset to experimentation, the curve will migrate up the blade.

 

As the need for the blade to become longer and shorter comes through time, it hits the reset button on the ideal position of the curve of the blade. Technique changes with the blade size changing and so the ideal position of the curve moves along with it to adapt to technique. You always have to book some time in there, decades, for things to evolve. So you will see conservative and liberal schools of thought which exist at the same time in competition for the future (always happens). Eventually the better design wins out which eventually becomes yesterday's design for whatever reason.

 

Just my thoughts on it an analysis (kinda speculative).

 

All criticism welcome. Don't have time to argue it out so will let your comments stand unchallenged.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Darcy, I'm really impressed by your analysis - thank you!

 

I hadn't tried to visualize koshizori & its application in the way you describe, but it makes a lot of sense to me, both as an engineer & as a long-time sword swinger. And that also helps me to figure out how & why the migration to toriizori with the shorter katana was a natural evolution.

 

Nice job!

 

Ken

[Brian]

Great read and analysis, thank you Darcy. Almost the makings of a mini-article there.

(Sword societies, take note )

 

Brian

[drbvac]

Just as a thought on form and function of course the length for actual use would HAVE to be able to be drawn quickly and for use on a horse or on foot. In era's of war I am sure the function would dictate the form for sure.

 

My thought on this is based on what at that time may have been discovered by use is actual cutting ability of any blade being enhanced by using in a slicing rather than a straight hacking motion. The microscopic serrations not visible on a cutting edge are what makes the slice a very efficient way to get through a roast or a man.

 

That said I would think a blade with more pronounced sori would make it easier to include a slicing motion in the strike and increase the amount of damage it could do?