Bruce Pennington

Like Austus, I know little about nihonto. But from how I read the history of why the stamps were directed, I assumed "they" were making blades the traditional way, even water quenching, but were using other steel, not tamahagane - therefore non-traditional - AND faking mei (gimei). Remember, this was becoming a problem in the mid-late 1930's. Many of the showato we see today, in Collecting-world, were made in the '40s. So, examples that would fit David's original topic would likely have come from the '30s, in my opinion. I would think gimei showato would be harder to find after the Army grew in it's oversight and inspection as the years went by (obviously, not extinct, just less).

Jean, It is a fact. The whole reason the Govt ordered the stamping of blades was precisely because showato were being produced, gimei, that could not be identified from the real thing. "HISTORY From Ryujin Swords Kevin Jones (http://ryujinswords.com/shostamp.htm): “Tang stamps were introduced precisely because swordsmiths and collectors could not distinguish the best quality non-traditional swords (i.e. ‘mill steel’ gendaito) from traditionally made swords. It was discovered that, as a result, some smiths were forging replicas of older swords, giving them false signatures (gimei), and passing them off as the real thing. Several smiths were subsequently arrested. Amidst mounting concern, the government passed a law requiring all swords that were non-traditional in any way to be marked with a tang stamp, although the actual stamp used was left to the manufacturer."

I remember now - it was Stegel's thread about the "transitional tsuba" -http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30699-type-95-transitional-tsuba/

Ha, thanks Stephen! It’s the star-shaped roku. My head sees 5 points so I think FIVE.

I was trying to remember where a discussion took place about the transition for the Jinsen Arsenal to start producing swords. I can't find it. The reason is that there is a Type 95 posted on Wehrmacht-Awards - http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1032195, showing a Kokura stamped, Tokyo instpected Iijima manufactured blade that has an additional "仁" (Jin) stamp. The Kokura stamp puts the manufacture of this blade no later than 1940. So this would appear to be a gunto provided by the Tokyo Arsenal to the Jinsen arsenal for maybe an example for the team starting up production?

Army Type 98 - June 1941 (I get the 5 and 6 mixed up too, Neil!) Navy Type 97 You can read about them both here: http://ohmura-study.net/902.html

Here's a better picture of the tsuba mei

Neil, Ok, I see the focus of your question. It was more narrow than I thought. I took it too broadly, and my feelings on the broader question would be better off in another thread, else your question goes unanswered. David, I'll start a thread to discuss my meaning.

You stirring the pot, Neil?!?! Ha! My feelings on this are the same as my feelings on the "Race" question on forms - IT'S HUMAN RACE!!! There ARE NO other races on this planet! In the same vein, Nihon-to are Japanese Swords - so if a sword was made by a Japanese man - it's NIHONTO. All nihonto, in this context, should then be evaluated for all the same criteria that make them beautiful. Either they have it or they don't. Like I said on another thread, this is an ageless battle between traditionalists and "modernists" (for lack of a better term). Traditionalists want things to stay the same, regardless of whether they SHOULD stay the same or not. I'll admit, there are some things that shouldn't change (just ask any conservative); but to create a caste-system for sword blades seems to miss the whole point of enjoying the art of a blade. Either it's purdy or it ain't. Why would it matter where the patch of dirt was located when the steel was mined? Either it's beautiful or it ain't. But nobody asked me when they started this battle.

I have to say the kanji marks are quite shiny. The Iroha system seems to have been closely followed. So much so that if you gave me a serial number alone I could tell you the year. I think I’ll file this one in the “Possible Fakes” file.

I'm sorry to hear that, but thanks for the warning Trystan. Poor picture, but it appears that they will be off on the mei and the quality of the nakago looks poor. It's a bit surprising that they would attempt a Mantetsu since the quality workmanship is so high. But then, quality standards have never stopped them with any other type either. *Sigh*

Dang Neil. That's gorgeous and I'm just seeing 1% of the gunto! I've always like the crossed arrows.

That was my feeling when I first held mine! I expected something wiggly, but they are a serious blade.

Adam you got an incredible deal! Those are Type 32 swords, originating in 1899 and produced through 1925. They made around 8,000/yr so you can do the math and estimate the years of your swords. The length will tell you if they are a Ko or Otsu version. Ko is 39" in scabbard and Otsu is 36" Someone with experience will have to help with the cosmolean. It was a goop the returning G.I.s put on steel souvenirs. Pure alcohol (find it at hardware stores) couldn't hurt the blade.

Some guys will do anything for attention!

Ah, it is good to meet another admirer of the master's work!!! Ha!

Ha!

According to Richard Fuller(Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks, '96 ed): "The official American estimate of swords and sabres takien in the south-west Pacific and Japan gives 661,621 captured and surrendered. These would also include samurai swords confiscated from civilians. Some 372,609 were dispersed as trophies, to museums and technical use. The remaining 290,012 were destroyed. The true figure for swords, of all types, taken by the Allied nations must be well in excess of 2,000,000. [earlier note was that no numbers are known for vast amount collected by Russian and Chinese forces] ... Destruction was normally by furnace after cutting in half. Another way was to dump them at sea from barges or garbage scows." (pgs 248,249). From Leon & Hiroko Kapp, Yoshindo Yoshihara, "Modern Japanse Swords and Sword Smiths, From 1868 to Present": Military sword production during WWII, 1940-1945: Seki produced 70% of swords, and they made 18,000/month = 216,000/yr. Therefore total military sword production approx 308,571/yr. Therefore, 1,851,426 total (missing data from 1930's). Approx. 6% were nihonto. Therefore - 111,085 total nihonto. Note: these are just newly produced numbers during the war. The number donated/bought from the private sector are in addition to this. If we add the 90,000 collected from homes at war's end (from Peter's reference) the nihonto number comes up to 200,000.

Well, if any of them exists, I would think Neil would have seen them! What do you say Neil?

Haven't decided a better way to show mine yet! Have them in my Dad's old gun cabinet.

Ah, now we're getting some responses! Austus - I saw that one, but didn't notice the showa stamp at the top. I just saw the hotstamp and assumed it was traditionally made. It was likely similar to David's example where it was semi-traditionally made, and thus got a stamp. David - thanks for the example. Too early to say with only 2 examples, but so far, it seems like they still were blades that cost more or were commissioned, at a price, and were "better" quality over standard showato. Someone with money wanting to put their name on their gunto is either going to show up with his own family blade, or spend the money to get a higher quality blade, in my opinion.

George, I'm not done with my search of NMB posts, so more may be coming. But I haven't been posting gendaito I find with mon, so there may have been some RJT blades I've crossed in the search. If it was gendai, I skipped by it as I was only looking for showato

Yes, 3 fans, seems likely. Anyone see a crest displayed in that many places on koshirae before?

I really don't this is a mon. When you see the rest of the koshirae, it's more likely an organization emblem. But I post it here in case there are new experts that might put a name to it: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/20100-what-mon-marking-is-this/?hl=kamon&do=findComment&comment=205874

One a kyu. I can't tell for the pics provided, but it may be a parade/dress blade, not a war blade. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/27525-identification-help/?hl=kamon&do=findComment&comment=277675