Bruce Pennington

Will, Are there any numbers stamped on the nakago (tang)? The other one like this I have on files has numbers.

Posting photos for posterity. Will, Your kai is interesting for a couple of reasons. It's got a custom saya, can't tell from the out-of-focus pic, but likely ray skin. So the owner paid extra for that. Also the stamps on the seppa and tsuba are an unknown maker. There is a kanji like that, but these are backward, or mirror of how it is written. So, we don't know who made them. By the lacquered material under the wrap (maybe fabric?), I'd put this in the last couple of years of the war. Lacquered rayskin was the norm for these, but in the last year, the military changes their mil specs to discourage the use of skins and move to artificial materials.

pics added for posterity

D, That's quite a story! Any idea who buried it? Seki Kanemoto is listed as an RJT qualified smith, so there is a chance this blade was made the traditional way. Any chance of finding a star stamp above the smiths' name, possibly around the hole? Any other stamps visible around the top of the tang, even on the back edge of it?

There is such a thing, and if you have been discussed here on the forum. In the pictures it can be a little difficult to distinguish between the two. The zoheito tend to have a bit more curve in the blade and shorter nakago.

Not mine, something at auction, but it has a stamped number "250" on it for my files (no date). Just need the name, thanks guys!

Matthew, So cool to meet the real owner! I'm with John. I think you've got a legit WWII gunto. And in a collector's perspective, more valuable BECAUSE of the uniqueness of the date. In the coin collecting world, a double-struck coin is more valuable because it is so rare. The image of Japanese precision in their craft can create this false aura that they were flawless. I like to see things like this because it brings the humanity back into focus.

As I always say - Communication is a terrible thing!

So, it seems unlikely to me that the non-functional arsenal would be stamping these post-war souvenirs. Thomas has quoted the polisher interview in which he states that bundles of blades were inspected and stamped by Army and Navy, then sold in the 2 clubs. Found here: My reply: " Hmmmm. This also fits a witness interview about the RJT blades that were collected, inspected and stamped. Interesting development, indeed. So, the implication is that these "acceptance" inspectors were Army & Navy, possibly independent of any arsenal? All 23 of my circled anchor stamped blades are not dated. It is my theory that the majority of non-dated blades were made before the Army took control of the sword industry in 1942. So, these stamped blades, along with the multitude of non-dated Showa and Seki blades could very well have been stamped by an inspection/acceptance stamping system broader or independant of individual arsenals. In 1943, all three of these almost disappear and blades are stamped by arsenals mostly. I had always just assumed that these inspectors were from the arsenals, and therefore the stamps were arsenal stamps. We learned clearly that the Seki stamp was not military, and was leaning to the Showa being civil as well. But in light of the witness, is sounds like the Showa and Circled Anchor very well could have been the Army and Navy inspectors referenced by the polisher. Hmmmmm"

Hmmmm. This also fits a witness interview about the RJT blades that were collected, inspected and stamped. Interesting development, indeed. So, the implication is that these "acceptance" inspectors were Army & Navy, possibly independent of any arsenal? All 23 of my circled anchor stamped blades are not dated. It is my theory that the majority of non-dated blades were made before the Army took control of the sword industry in 1942. So, these stamped blades, along with the multitude of non-dated Showa and Seki blades could very well have been stamped by an inspection/acceptance stamping system broader or independant of individual arsenals. In 1943, all three of these almost disappear and blades are stamped by arsenals mostly. I had always just assumed that these inspectors were from the arsenals, and therefore the stamps were arsenal stamps. We learned clearly that the Seki stamp was not military, and was leaning to the Showa being civil as well. But in light of the witness, is sounds like the Showa and Circled Anchor very well could have been the Army and Navy inspectors referenced by the polisher. Hmmmmm

I checked my Dawson book, and I see why Hamish called it a transition between the Type 9 and 19. The plain backstrap is of the Type 8 Company grade kyu, but it had a solid handguard. The open floral design came in the 1886 revision which also added the sakura to the backstrap. I've attached pics from Dawson, including his description of the black German styled knot authorized in 1912.

As always, a beauty, Neil! And in one gunto, it has items for three files - Showa stamped blade, Dot on Nakago, and Patented sayajiri. Thanks!

Quite gorgeous Volker (the sword, I mean!), and amazingly intact and well preserved. I agree with you, that blade is a beauty. Great feeling to know you have such a rare item, isn't it?

Thanks John, quite interesting! Nice to see that I've been using a couple of methods that are actually in the book. Never thought of that stuck habaki removal technique though!

Digging a little, I'm reminded that the late-war kaigunto usually just had the circled anchor with no mei. The blades in the post war souvenir all have the circled anchor. Post war, the Tenzoshan factory was allowed to remain open and make souvenir swords and they all had this stamp. Would this support Thomas' idea? Would this say the circled anchor was actually the Tenzoshan Factory stamp? We've already learned thanks to @Kiipu that our reference books that show the stylized anchor as the Tenzohsan stamp, were wrong, that in fact it's the Navy Kamakura-Tenzoshan Inspector stamp. Or was the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal still operating after the war and stamping these souvenir blades? Maybe someone knows the post-war history of the arsenal? Seems unlikely, even if open, that a Military Arsenal would be stamping souvenirs made for G.I. tourists. Back to the previous post, though, I found discussions about the evolution of the Mukden stamps revealed by @BANGBANGSAN HERE and @Stegel HERE. Would this practice support the idea that the unadorned anchor of the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal was in fact being used in circles and sakura on varying items? If not, why don't we see the unadorned anchor on a multitude of weapons, swords, etc? Was the Army the only arsenal system that widely stamped their military equipment? My final observation is in looking at the "He" of Jensen and the circled "He" of the Hoten Corp. Maybe this one isn't the same as what we are discussing? Could it just be coincidence that the Hoten Corp used the "He" in their stamp, or could this be an example of the Jensen Arsesnal using variations of their inspector stamps for different factories? I know I'm all over the place with these 3 questions, but just thought I'd post them in hopes of stirring some insight from someone/anyone.

I'd like to consolidate a discussion we are having about the Navy anchor in circle stamp. @Kiipu has pointed out a regulation that shows Toyokawa Navy Arsenal stamps ON THIS 1883 NAVY SWORDS THREAD and none of them are in circle. In fact, he shows examples of the anchor without circle or sakura. After tracking down an earlier discussion of this thread - WHY ARE MON RARE ON KAI GUNTO?, I discovered a page posted by @BANGBANGSAN that supports Thomas' new disclosure. In my files, I have a photo of a Type 99 Arisaka rifle with the plain anchor without circle or sakura which seems to support this idea. So, the question arises - Who the heck was using the anchor in circle and anchor in sakura stamps if not Toyokawa? The anchor in circle is only (so far) found on sword blades and the anchor in sakura is found on dirks, seppa, and bayonets. It's not likely to be a shop logo as I have a seppa with both the anchor in sakura AND a Gunto Saisaku Jo logo In fact, the dirk photo I have has 2 stamps as well: The double stamps originally supported the idea that the anchor stamps were from the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal. Thomas is proposing that the stamps are, instead, a stamp like the Showa and large Seki stamps, which in today's understanding were private stamps used by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association. His source indicated that the blades destined for the navy received their own stamps, and that may explain these. LINK TO THE REG PAGES Trystan's page: 豊川海軍工廠Toyokawa-mark.pdf I'm open for ideas.

Trystan I'd be tempted to read it, blade tip up, so more like 15 14; or 141 14

I updated that list to include Nagamitsu of Gifu

Brian, I don't understand what you are asking. Looks like a nice representative of the Type19. If it fits your collecting goals, keep and enjoy! Are you asking about further cleaning?

Thomas, The link provided was mostly discussing the Showa/Seki stamps. Are you referencing Nick's linked documents on Navy Acceptance Marking Regulations? This is significant information. Are you able to share the "Japanese sources" that describe it as comparable to the Seki stamp?

Update on Leo's Akimitsu with different numbers painted on the nakago than the stamped numbers. The fittings are stamped "51" matching the painted numbers. The first "6" was erased, leaving "51". So I quite convinced the stamped numbers are NOT fittings shop numbers, but rather Army numbers, probably something to do with the RJT program. Thomas, we didin't discuss the mune. I will ask about that and follow up on it.

What stamp are we talking about guys? This one? If so, that is the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal stamp. Why is that in doubt? If not, which stamp?

Thanks Ed!

Barry, do you have the serial number on that Mantetsu?

I haven't done any research into which smith this is, but the "Na" stamp of the Nagoya Army Arsenal is a strong sign that this is a showato. Evidence indicates that blades marked with arsenal inspector stamps were not made traditionally. That is not the case in star-stamped blades with additional inspector stamps, but the blade in question is likely showata as it doesn't have star. Also, since the blade was handed over to the Nagoya arsenal, there's a good chance that the smith was working in the Seki area.