Gakusee

Wow, Jiri, that is stunning! I am away from my Hawley and Chapelier mon booklet but I am sure someone else will be able to answer.

I agree with Thomas and Axel: this is a nice little blade with a fairly decent attribution. It kind of reminds one even of Hasebe exuberance in some aspects of the blade. So, yes, whatever the attribution in the broader ballpark of good quality Soshu disciple from the Nanbokucho period, that will be fine. And people need to be able to live with that fuzziness of attribution within the broader framework. If I were into that type of thing, I would seriously consider it at this interesting and tempting junction of [price point, quality, attribution, level of certification]. So, I would not be surprised if some Soshu lovers pile into this. Disclaimer: not my blade or belonging to anyone I know and I have no commercial or other interest inherent in this blade or its sale/purchase. Lately, there has been a lot of interest in Soshu. That has logically been driving prices up. There are still some attractively priced opportunities around Soshu tier-II (eg various Den Sa school work, Den Hasebe etc) but even these are disappearing fast.

John, the above might be true. Or might not. I tend to trust more the NBTHK on average than Tsuruta. But what is clearly stated of implied by Aoi is that it is better than an average Tametsugu. I have no issue with dark jigane (as this is very Northern, ie Etchu) and when I read of tightly forged jihada, I am usually positive as this is a favourable trait (unless so tight and homogeneous as to lead to a Shinto/ShinShinto conclusion). So, this piece “surprises on the upside” as they say in financial circles, rather than disappoint “on the downside”.

Robert, please kindly relay our wishes for swift recovery.

Yes, did not mean to offend Flynn and shows that I need to spell check too! How very annoying I did not do that! It is indeed Magoroku after all. Thanks, Geraint!

Not Margaroku. It is a bit annoying when people do not make an effort to check what they have typed as a newcomer / beginner could be confused and led down a wrong track. Magaroku Kanemoto is what was intended to be said. The hamon is indeed in the style of late Kanemoto / mature Mino. One needs to analyse hada + kasane + boshi + nakago patina better to draw meaningful conclusions. I am curious how people could so readily place this in time essentially only on the basis of some partial hamon outline and sugata.

I agree with what Chris has said and have experienced the same openness and welcome, within reason and politeness. One small caveat I shall make is that: very few people shop at Juyo level and have access to the Juyo Zufu, and additionally have the appetite to either learn kanji and Japanese (and translate themselves) or commission paid translations of the Juyo entries for comparison. I think we can simplify the rule to: do as much research as possible (physical, virtual etc) and do not rush before you buy. I would recommend studying for at least year or two before buying a first blade (preferably more) and discussing live with knowledgable people. With that behind you, you will slowly start getting a feel for the “market” (which could be a broad definition and encompass: online major auctions like Sotheby’s and Bonham’s, small local auctions, physical arms fairs, Western dealers, Japanese dealers, what collectors post here, etc) and also what you like (that changes over time - so the more patient you are, the more rewarding). Some people do more research, with more tools and have wider access. That is built over time. So, start gradually and work on connections and knowledge.

I think the conclusion is simple: Soshu has always been held in high regard. But lately even more and anything Soshu ( and close students) flies off the shelves. I like using Norishige as a benchmark. Its price has on average also tripled. So, this tanto was a good investment to start with (a student) and perhaps undervalued. Something similar is happening to Sa students too - also popular.

This post raises interesting issues: indeed there are various reasons why JuBi and JuBu are not to be exported out of Japan. However, there are and there have been foreign owners of such blades both inside and outside of Japan. We are aware of a few. In the last few DTI shows I attended, there were always 3-5 JuBi around at some of the higher-end dealers' stalls: Kurokawa san, Takahashi san, Iida san, etc . There could have been JuBu too but these were not publicly displayed and discussed - most likely deals at such level were done in camera. Another clarification necessary is that dealers in Japan have strong commercial interests and several have in fact offered to sell JuBi blades to foreigners - all of that with the understanding that the blade would be deregistered as JuBi and one would need to re-paper it (if the buyer so wished) via the NBTHK system. What is right is, of course, the still high prestige that the JuBi designation carries. There are many (and there will be more) TJ blades but JuBi are scarce and their number is limited and decreasing. So, even if a blade is not at Juyo/TJ level per se but carries some historical association with a prominent family, has interesting history or tradition-borne attribution, it could be a JuBi. In most instances, for the vast majority of us, these discussions are hypothetical and the blades debated, out of reach. To revert to Brian 'Winchester''s original question, what we can do is point him to some of the more prolific dealer websites where he can peruse what he could buy at different price levels. Aoijapan is appropriate, due to its high volume and historic data. In fact, it had the cheapest JuBi I had ever come across (from memory around 11-12m yen, but definitely not in the $70k ballpark). There are many dealer websites catalogued here on this forum, and some are also regular posters here - Ray, etc. Jussi in fact had collated a lot of past data on sword pricing: For the beginner, it is best to read, discuss with fellow collectors, visit shows and dealers to experience blades first hand and after a while, figure out where he is in terms of preference vs economics.

Mark Before spending too much money, may I recommend you get in touch with Chris Hill (nickname here: Valric) from Switzerland, who is also on this board. Perhaps you two could find some common topics and he has some good views, blades and knowledge to help you formulate your interests.

Axel, did you see this thread as well: Same protagonists and also very enjoyable

Directionally right but some major misstaments. You cannot get a JuBi in the 70-125k price bracket unless I suppose it is completely discredited, so effectively one of those 30% of JuBi that everyone knows is not right but kept as such due to a historic attribution. Even the discredited ones are north of 18-20m yen and the good, legit ones are on average close to 30m yen. So if you can find us a good Kamakura Soshu or Bizen or Yamashiro JuBi in that price bracket, I would be curious to learn what it is please. One could take the risk of having it declassified and repapered. An obvious omission in that quote is the 20-40k bracket, where one can get all sorts of what is being referred to above as “junior” Juyo. To throw some more oil in the flames: Juyo in the criteria of NBTHK is approximately at the same level as JuBi and TJ at the same level of JuBu. So you could have a marvellous sword at TJ which is better than some JuBu blades (different categories : one a central government designation and the other - NBTHK one). But in all of that, people are becoming focused on papers as a proxy for quality or smith or importance. Using such shortcuts is dangerous.

Jussi, A good post but we are swiftly moving to very deep waters for a beginner here. Some points to explain the price differences across your examples: overall quality/condition (this includes signed or not, how thin/polished, ware or not, etc), generation (whether by the shodai/nidai/sandai), long or short sword, with or without high-quality koshirae, and finally (the minefield in its own right) what paper it has. Unfortunately, commercially, the level of certificate (Hozon, vs TH, vs J vs TJ etc) or even the type (NBTHK vs NTHK vs Fujishiro paper etc) has a substantial bearing on price. Sometimes people exploit that for their benefit at the expense of inexperienced people. A blade could be unpapered or 'only' Hozon and yet it might be very rare and desirable and high-quality (but happens to be a 'hidden' blade). Refer to https://blog.yuhindo.com/ladder-theory/ To take it a step deeper, even with the same smith, if a blade lacks certain characteristics or a type of signature, it might not command the same price. Refer to https://blog.yuhindo.com/context/#more-840 There is so much to say on this topic and so little time.... Alas, this is one of the more interesting threads in a long while and we should keep contributing here.

Thanks, Piers. My empirical observation, where there had not been changes etc, led me to a wrong conclusion. Or maybe there had been “central” notifications to the bunkacho but the torokusho itself did not have any names of recent owners.

Brian - what do you mean? The torokusho is not issued in a person’s name (well, not when ownership changes anyway). These are small rectangular cards that people usually tape or attach to the shirasaya and stay with the sword. So, these swords might well be registered as antiques, etc but if they have changed hands many times, the relevant ministry would not have a record of the latest owner in any case.

Many remarkable and top names across Bizen, Yamashiro etc master smiths….This is a right treasure and pity the person was robbed.

You guys miss out on the fact that the sword had nice (but not exceptional) fittings and ito, which just happen to be a good color match for some of the armour that also sold there.

We seem to be conflating sword societies and paper. The original question asked about the survival of sword societies and provided a timeframe - in the near future (presumably). However, that is only an assumption, as we do not know whether paper will be phased out in the near term or medium term. Arguably, it is a moot point in the long term. Therefore, we need to go back to basics and focus on whether sword societies will survive. This is a difficult question. Theoretically, they should, as long as the hobby and collecting interests persist. However, an alternative theory is that they become much looser associations of individuals, on a much more federated (as opposed to centralised) and possibly purely, or largely, virtual basis. If people feel sword societies bring benefits (educational, emotional, etc), they should survive as the members will persevere to sustain these organisations. However, if sword societies become irrelevant (through obsolescence of ideas, education, unavailability of study materials etc), then the threat of oblivion is very real. Another stream of analysis, which posters often digress into, is how best to study - with swords in hand, electronically (photos on a website or other repository), by reading books (physical or electronic). Again, this is a different topic entirely and merits its own debate. In my view, study should be multifarious and variegated - physical, electronic, by virtue of passive information absorption (reading/listening) and active participation (kantei, debates). Once, we abstract the method of information provision and internalisation as described above, as long as sword societies provide the avenues for learning or enjoyment, I hope they will survive. As Paul has outlined regarding the U.K. and as far as I know the US NBTHK are also doing, combinations of physical meetings, electronic videoconferences, printed materials, electronic materials, debates etc energise and excite the membership and retain it. in my view, membership retention is one serious challenge. People often sign up but fall away as: personal conflicts arise, member aspirations are not met (these societies are not museums with vast collections and are not universities with dedicated teaching materials and courses; funds are not unlimited; volunteers donate their own free time for others’ benefit; societies cannot provide definitive answers members sometimes seek and definitely cannot shortcut hard work and learning) and sometimes members just join for the wrong reasons. Another challenges are the age and sex factors: middle-aged and ageing males predominate. So, we need to diversify our membership bases by being more inclusive, more pluralistic and democratic in our outreach to prospective members, more tolerant and broad in subjects we cover (tosogu, kodogu, blades, restoration etc). There is much more to say but this is such a vast topic that has often preoccupied my mind. We try to recruit and supplant membership decreases but my observations across several societies are that we are barely maintaining membership. We are not expanding or growing and we just about manage to stay at the same size. Other societies just fold and disappear.

So, I think, Luis you are starting to answer your own questions: why the prices of certain items, what the valuable things were, where value lay…..as mentioned, a lot of the instances, where there was value, it was in the tosogu and koshirae and not the blades.

Thank you, Mark That is very helpful and that is why I wanted to ask questions of the knowledgeable and experienced katchu collectors and users. I had never heard of that organisation before, and I now understand a bit better who they are and what they represent. In fact, I agree that slandering or degrading comments should not be posted and I had assumed the original bewildering comments were directed at me. Hence, my request for clarification of what was meant by Simon. Guido helpfully clarified by inserting a link to another social media platform. In any case, I wish to clarify that I am not intending to pass judgement or make critical remarks and apologise if my enquiry has been deemed insulting.

Simon, I am sorry but your response seems rather perplexing rather than elucidating. Would you so graciously disabuse me as to who Kokusai Nihon Kachu Bugu Shinko Kyokai is? I am only familiar with the Japanese Armor Society in Japan, Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai (NKBKHK). If you could kindly share your perspectives on KNKBSK, I shall be grateful. If not, I shall ask Luc T as he might have a view. Curiously, several of the armours in this Bonhams sale come with attestations from KNKBSK, and the more knowledgeable katchu members here might have a view on the strength and recognition of their opinions. I am only somewhat familiar with NKBKHK, which I only recently joined (around 3-4 years ago).

Does anyone know who "Kokusai Nihon Kachu Bugu Shinko Kyokai (International Society for the Promotion of Japanese Armor)" are? I have not heard of them....

I think gradually the collective wisdom is crystallising the truth: in most cases the koshirae held the value in these offerings. In fact, as Bob alluded to, there were 3-4 instances where there were very valuable things to be had.

Bob, it does indeed look almost identical but with some subtle differences. Clearly from the same “playbook”.

Luis, those of us who bid clearly have had our thoughts about these things. Prices are indicative of people having certain expectations. There were some pieces that possibly, with the right restoration in place, could get high papers - not sure about Juyo but at least TH. The problem with all these things is that we are competing against each other, so information sharing cannot be too extensive....