Gakusee

That is a difficult and highly subjective discussion. It is fraught with problems such as: - what is an “artistic merit” and who judges that? - how can we isolate “artistic merit” from eg engineering and structural integrity, balance, cutting ability etc - why are we trying to assume consistent application of standards over the last 60 odd years of shinsa judgements, when in reality there were different panels with different views / weights and slightly different absolute and relative criteria? I posit that it is not possible to draw definitive conclusions over the entire period NBTHK judgements have been conferred. And that is fine. They have evolved as has the subject. For instance, I noticed that in the “problematic” 1970s, when there was some rampant Juyo issuance, a number of Juyo certificates were issued to swords made by Ichige Tokurin. See one such example below. In my view, his swords are not pretty and do not have artistic merit. The hamon is plain, the whole execution uninspiring.. Yes, he was interesting in that he was a samurai retainer who turned swordsmith. But do his swords have historic importance or artistic merit? In my humble view not really.

Agreed on that point and the point Jacques is making. I was just clarifying the approach taken by Fujishiro in his very limited set of predominantly famous and well-known smiths. Otherwise, yes, there are arcane smiths outside of Fujishiro with great blades. Not only outside of Fujishiro, but sometimes the setsumei would also get muddled and talk about smiths with shared names and related but different genealogies etc which are not even properly described in the various meikan.

Bobby i think the predominant factor for the ratings of Fujishiro is not him having seen them or not. It is more about written and oral tradition passed on to him by the previous generations. Nihonto study and ratings is all about history, tradition and what has been valued over the eras.

So get back on track… 1. Attached is the famous (and sublime) Awataguchi Kunimitsu JuBu. Different chisel strokes and style. 2. The DTI tanto is actually the one in the Fujishiro Koto volume. So, it must have some additional history and probably documented provenance etc but this does not mean it is not daimei by one of the students. The more I look into it the more daimei it seems.

Of course we agree on all of that. He has no such blades

Both are desirable attributions. Given that I personally prefer rarity, I would value the Awataguchi one more. But Shintogo is extremely highly rated and commercially a source of great profits for dealers. So if the TH certificate does not specify anything besides the signature, a dealer could insert their own interpretation that this is “Shintogo”. So, you either have a daimei work here or indeed you are veering towards Awataguchi / Rai. But one needs to explore “Mitsu” too as you have focused entirely on the “Kuni” above. Look at the direction of the horizontal strokes and the overall crown in “Mitsu”.

Yes, that is Ted in the second photo. So sad the the three great people in the right in your first photo are now gone.

Many knew Guido for his acerbic wit, potent intellectual bon mot and direct, trenchant delivery. He was a man of many talents as we can see from the photos above. I would like to share a different, lyrical side to the man, larger than life. He did say he would chase any of us using his special service contacts if any of this ever surfaced but I think this is an important tribute to the great Guido. Well, I have cut the two songs he performed to a short illustrative snippet as Brian will probably not like 300MB of the entire performance on his server. IMG_3212.mov

Photo from the paper hardcopy catalogue

If Sano are talking about Kamakura-area based (ie Sagami) smiths who dated their work, then Jussi is of course right. If it is Kamakura-period smiths, there are many dated examples and others beyond the ones I quoted above (well, many as in more than 4-5, of course not a plethora). Either way, the Sano statement, if quoted correctly, is strictly speaking a mis-statement. But Haydn, Sano Museum is a source of very good knowledge and they have a great collection. I am not too familiar with the Mokusa school and cannot comment on whether there are signed early works, which is what the discussion is about. In conclusion, Sano should have said “earliest Soshu-den smith who worked in Sagami/ Kamakura and dated his work”. But we are being pettifogging here.

Lewis, I would not have quoted specific dates if I were not certain

Afraid not true. There is a Moriie dated 1280, KoAoe 1190s, Bungo Yukihira 1205 and others.

So Sue Aoe (from end Nanbokucho / early Muromachi) is described below in Nihonto Koza. See attached. I shall admit that they do mention shiraki utsuri as possible, so I was wrong 😑 on that point. But the jigane (while not as clear as the developed / mid Aoe ”saeru” that succeeds the slightly more rustic koAoe with its possible sumihada and less refinement) is not rough. Could you be commenting on state of preservation whereby the core hada is showing through? Note the Sato sensei clearly states sumihada is scarce. And also note that there is a specific clarification on nioi only. Overall, I do concur that it is a big sub-school with some varied workmanship. Some flamboyant and vivid and some more subdued and subtle.

Interesting… However, sueAoe does not have rough jigane, utsuri is not really shirake and it is not nie rendered. I do get that sometimes the boundary is blurred between konie and nioi but we do not really see Aoe in nie and also there should be clear, distinct and nice (saka) ashi. Even in Eirakudo’s photo, they do not look like typical Aoe ashi. How does it feel in hand (lighter or chunkier) and is sugata more graceful (Enju) or heavier set with wider mihaba (probably more sue Aoe)?

This is not Aoi (which has its own distinct photo graphic style). This is Eirakudo and it is pretty unique in maximising the contrast in its photos and working with shadows etc

I use the same maths as it is effectively 3 and 0 repeating indefinitely: 3.0303 etc or 0.3030 or 30.303030 etc. Very easy to put in a calculator I personally put this in the calculator for this above: 2.47 x 30.303030 for result in cm

Well, Kiril, it could be because everyone scampered off to the “secret forum”, you oft like mentioning. And frankly with this polish, these photos and this lighting, it could be almost anything between Bizen- and Mino-inspired something to something else.

I have owned (not anymore) a blade from them. The blade did not disappoint me and had everything the photo showed. Well, difficult to disappoint as it was a zaimei Ichimonji blade with sublime jigane and active hamon. I have also considered buying others from there but one needs to examine closely the ones with thin hamon or hamon close to the hassaki. Since the contrast is indeed so powerfully magnified, sometimes the habuchi appears stronger than in real life, where you can be disappointed. So in real life everything is softer and more subdued than their vivid, high-contrast photos.

Bear in mind the contrast is maxed out, shadows and definition have been tweaked

To sum up: - Yamato, Yamashiro and Bizen (book 1): currently available in their Japanese, original versions (and have been for a while actually) - Yamato and Yamashiro translated by Markus in English currently available to purchase - Bizen book 1 in English (Markus translation) available some time in 2026

Actually outside of online forums Guido is a great person, entertainer and intellectual. I like his sardonic wit and analytical mind. And as some of you know, his Japanese singing ability is also quite impressive. However, sometimes people on this and other forums could be friendly in person, but they just don’t behave “online”. Please focus on the positive sides of this hobby and do not expend energies bickering.

Hmmm. Not the fine itame mokume style of Norishige (so well regarded at TokuJu) and yet not quite the beautiful and desirable matsukawa hada. Quite a bit of hadatachi and nagare in a style in-between. Some other Norishige blades have what looks like utsuri (eg attached). Here there are some spots which look almost like sumihada but it is not clear what it is. One will need to look into the sayagaki in detail… And yes, the habaki is exceptional

Alex if I am not mistaken you are into Mino? Or perhaps I got that wrong. This is Soshu style and hence quite ara nie heavy. Not for everyone indeed and I also prefer a more refined nie experience.

Not really H, need to pursue this more Both are late Soshu/ Soshu inspired but not quite top Soshu. Therefore when you see such Soshu like works which are not as refined and sophisticated as top / core Soshu, you default to Sanekage or Tametsugu. Perhaps not enough nagare or togari for the N Shizu attribution

There were several threads a few months ago about faking Juyo swords. Chris / Hoshi commented on them and a few others. Someone in Japan has been “re-creating” Juyo rated swords off the oshigata in the Juyo books. Probably stolen or misplaced Juyo origami which the person on Yahoo somehow got hold of. The authentic Japanese swords were properly forged and imitated the hamon but there were differences to what one would expect of the original. These were supposed to be high level swords (Go, Awataguchi etc) with genuine Juyo and TokuJu origami but the nie was not right or the specific hataraki, though very close, were not an identical match to the oshigata or TJ photo or the nakago was ever so slightly off. Worthwhile checking these threads…