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Ww2 Kyu Gunto Authentication Help

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#1 Grimmdarkspire

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 08:26 PM

Hello all, I'm looking for assistance on authenticating this KYU GUNTO I picked up. I'm looking find if A) It's Genuine B) It's value C) How to take off the handle.

 

I've attempted several times to remove the handle but I have been unsuccessful. 

 

I've done research online, spoken to other experts and even read the book 

Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945

by Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory. So far, from my research I've found it's a genuine machine made blade and Toyotomi Hideyoshi Kyu gunto Mountings.

 

Please help me understand more about my sword. 

 

Thank you in advance.  :) 

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Seth

#2 Geraint

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 09:19 PM

Dear Seth.

 

I would be delighted to be wrong but I believe this to be  a modern reproduction.  This opinion is based on the quality of the mounts, the overbright finish, the detailing of the backstrap, the fit of the hinge pin, the surface of the saya and the very dubious blade.  Compare closely with the illustrations in Fuller and Gregory and check out this site, http://ohmura-study.net/773.html

 

All  the best.


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Geraint

#3 Stephen

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 10:19 PM

Agree as new product
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#4 raymondsinger

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 10:26 PM

I would likewise say that this appears to be a modern replica.


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#5 Hamfish

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Posted 06 October 2018 - 12:07 AM

trying to reproduce a 1883 admirals flag kyu gunto. 

 

iv had one in the past, and this is very very very far from the quality needed in the fittings.....

 

sorry for the bad news


Hamfish

#6 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 06 October 2018 - 04:07 AM

Modern Japanese replica, good for display.


John


#7 Semar mendem

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Posted 06 October 2018 - 05:49 PM

Agree..,its new.,my friends have an old one.., belongs to his grand father when join at Japanese navy, gift from marshal-admiral togo heihachiro,
Semar M.

#8 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 06 October 2018 - 07:12 PM

Geez, not being a collector of this type, I would have been fooled. I didn't even know they were faking this style!

After your comments, though, I can see the differences. Man, never can let your guard down!

#9 Malcolm

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 07:13 AM

Hi Bruce,

 

Strictly speaking they are not faking the item, the blades are usually chromed duramilium alloy  to keep within Ju To Ho regs (like the swords used by many for Iai & Batto).

 

Replicas of Military items which are very popular with  military collectors and others in Japan are sold through many dealers including Japan Sword Company Ltd in Toranomon.

 

http://www.japansword.co.jp/

 

Click on Militaly (sic)

 

Also Seth,  have you tried a magnet on the blade?

 

:)


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Malcolm


#10 paul griff

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 05:25 PM

Hello,
It's without doubt a nice quality reproduction and would make a nice display piece...Back to your original post Seth...Don't bother trying to dismantle it you will probably damage it and there is nothing of interest beneath the hilt...
Regards,
Paul...

#11 Stephen

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 07:08 PM

kozyo.jpg

 

pix from the 60s making dirks  for Navy Cadets other swords on wall 


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#12 Hamfish

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 10:21 PM

this is the detail and level of work you will find on a 1883 admirals flag sword, to compare to yours 

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Hamfish

#13 Grimmdarkspire

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:41 AM

Hi Bruce,

 

Strictly speaking they are not faking the item, the blades are usually chromed duramilium alloy  to keep within Ju To Ho regs (like the swords used by many for Iai & Batto).

 

Replicas of Military items which are very popular with  military collectors and others in Japan are sold through many dealers including Japan Sword Company Ltd in Toranomon.

 

http://www.japansword.co.jp/

 

Click on Militaly (sic)

 

Also Seth,  have you tried a magnet on the blade?

 

:)

 

Malcolm, 

 

I did place a Magnent on the blade, it didn't react. I've also studied over Richard Fuller's books, compared to fellow colleague's variations of this and they have also confirmed it's genuine with a full tang machine blade. All the research sites I've got in my pocket this matches, the majority of the other Colonel Flag Navy Kyu guntos I've seen are different in shell grips, pegs in the handle, knots and even blades. But there is a verity of them out there.


Seth

#14 Grimmdarkspire

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:55 AM

this is the detail and level of work you will find on a 1883 admirals flag sword, to compare to yours 

I looked over mine again and again and it's detail is on part with yours, extremely fine quality. The difference I saw was mine has the blossom peg that Oyabun has in his above as well as the slightly pulled apart fittings where yours are closed more. 


Seth

#15 Malcolm

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 08:20 AM

Good morning Seth,

 

If the magnet has no effect on the blade, I am sorry to say, it suggests a material other than steel.

 

Many of us here on NMB practice the Japanese sword arts of one form or another, and some travel to train in Japan carrying their Iai-To which has a duramilium alloy blade

 

The first thing we encounter at Customs in Japan is the gentleman with the magnet, and once the blade has passed the "no stick" test we are allowed to enter as the blade is designated non ferrous and thus does not require a Torokusho licence.

 

There are two types of alloy blade made in Japan which do not require Torokusho, one is referred to as Mogito and really just for display and the other is referred to as Iai - To and is produced with prolonged safe training in mind.

 

Duramilium alloy Iai-To were first produced in the late 1950's by Meirin Sangyo K K in Osaka and are the norm, now produced by many Budogu manufacturers in Japan.

 

Military Parade blades from the Meiji era and later were produced from ferrous material, often with a chromium finish and should test positive with a magnet.


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Malcolm


#16 PNSSHOGUN

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 10:20 AM

Seth, there are a number of Kyu Gunto collectors here and on the facebook page that all agree this is a replica, why are you so convinced it isn't?


John


#17 Hamfish

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 12:38 PM

please dont cling to hope. 

 

there are some members here that are more educated then the Japanese, on military swords.

 

its not genuine. its modern.

 

no ones trying to trick you, con you or steal from you.

 

we are trying to educate you. do be silly and argue, just listen and learn. the above sword i posted is listed in both fuller & gregary books that's how experienced some members are here.

the very reference's  your looking at in books are owned by some members 


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Hamfish

#18 Grimmdarkspire

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:44 PM

Thank you all for your help. I appreciate your thoughts and professional inspections. 

 

I've been doing this for 14 years now and I've seen many like this one. I even had a fellow colleague recently compare it to his and the mountings matched, however the blade on his was an ancestral blade which was the only difference we could really see. So I have to assume the mountings are at least real.

 

However, I've have had many give me differing opinions like yourselves and I'm grateful for your time and expertise. 

 

My last effort now is having Richard Fuller take a look at it today. He's written the books Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 and 

Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks. I'll be grateful for one more opinion.

 

Thank you all for your help.


Seth

#19 Hamfish

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 10:38 AM

:bang: 

 

not the wasted money , but the wasted time 


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Hamfish

#20 ChrisW

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:33 AM

Well, its good for newer people like me. Learning from the mistakes of others is a free education! Sorry about your situation though.


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Chris W.

 

Chrisw7290@gmail.com


#21 Grimmdarkspire

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 04:54 PM

Hello all! Update* 

 

It's taken some time for Richard Fuller to look over this piece and finding more information it, but he has finally AUTHENTICATED this and is issuing documentation on it as an authentic and GENUINE item. This is what Richard Fuller claims, "This was issued by the Imperial Palace directly." Hence the Kamon stampings that are unique to this type. Also* after having a Jeweler inspect the piece; we have found the metal parts have been covered with a thick gold plating increasing the value substantially, the gold plating is why the coloration of the mountings has been different for some eyes. 

 

Thank you all for sharing your inspection details and for taking the time to comment. 

 

I'm grateful this has been authenticated and documentation is being issued, and especially, that I didn't give up early on.

 

Thank you again.
 


Seth

#22 Stephen

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:24 PM

ALWAYS follow your heart! Great news!
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#23 Bruce Pennington

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 05:38 PM

Hello all! Update*

It's taken some time for Richard Fuller to look over this piece and finding more information it, but he has finally AUTHENTICATED this and is issuing documentation on it as an authentic and GENUINE item. This is what Richard Fuller claims, "This was issued by the Imperial Palace directly." Hence the Kamon stampings that are unique to this type. Also* after having a Jeweler inspect the piece; we have found the metal parts have been covered with a thick gold plating increasing the value substantially, the gold plating is why the coloration of the mountings has been different for some eyes.

Thank you all for sharing your inspection details and for taking the time to comment.

I'm grateful this has been authenticated and documentation is being issued, and especially, that I didn't give up early on.

Thank you again.

Wow Seth! It was the bright gold that threw me off in the first place. Hmmm. Did they say whether they thought the gold plating was done for the palace initial order?

#24 Geraint

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 06:15 PM

Good news Seth, where did you and Richard meet up?  I didn't know that he had started issuing authentication papers now, look forward to seeing them.  What did he say about the magnet not sticking to the blade?

 

All the best.


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Geraint

#25 Hamfish

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:54 PM

they would have issued IMPERIAL HOUSEHOLD SWORD in that case.

 

which Richard Fuller have you been talking too?? the one at the pub??

 

cant wait to see these myself too. 

 

and why are you getting a jewler to inspect it?? go to your nearest JSSUS club 

 

im just gona say cmplete bullshit here


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Hamfish

#26 Johnny Barracuda

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 02:08 PM

Hello,

 

I was also a bit thrown off by the bright gold and what appears to be a machine made blade.

 

As Hamish pointed out, this would be an admiral sword, a 1883 flag officer type, if genuine.

 

This type was discontinued after 1914, when all naval kyu gunto were standardised on the 1883 officer type, which meant the suppression of both the petty officer and flag officer types. A rare sword.

 

However, I have the same questions as other board members: why, specially on a sword for flag ranks, would the blade be non-ferrous?

 

I would also be rather curious to see Richard Fuller's certificate.

 

Regards,

 

Thibault

 

 

 

 


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Cheers,

 

Thibault






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