sashikomi/hadori

[kunitaro]

磁鉄鉱　Jitekko is Iron Oxide, I think.

It is almost same stuff as Kanahada,

You can buｙ Jitekko from shop, and Kanahada, you have to get from sword smith.

However, That is not real Sashikomi (tsushima-togi), it is Kanahada (or Jitekko) Nugui.

 

and All of professional polisher have their own (secret) water, nitric acid or some other chemical solution.

 

almost same as Yakiba-tsuchi (clay for Yakiire)

All sword smith have their own secret clay.

 

PS: the old master polisher is not my frined, my master/sensei.

I am like a kindergarden for him....

[runagmc]

PS: the old master polisher is not my frined, my master/sensei.

I am like a kindergarden for him....

 

:lol: Thank you for your time, and for sharing with us what your teacher said...

[george trotter]

Hi Kunitaro san,

Wow, your information is all new to me. I have heard before that acid is sometimes used by togishi to bring out the hada and hamon ("Facts/Fundamentals" p.87), but I thought Nakahara sensei means "some" togishi polishing swords in both sashikomi and hadori use it to finish the job quickly. I never heard of acid being used as a regular part the actual modern sashikom polish technique only.

 

If I understand you, I think your information means I am collecting WWII RJT gunto swords with inferior quick acid polish (even maybe destructive in the long term)? I think you are saying that even sashikomi polish swords from start of Meiji jidai are probably acid finished?

 

As you say that "real" sashikomi is very rare, maybe I have never seen it? Maybe I have only seen acid sashikomi and I think it is "normal-true" sashikomi? Maybe even Koto/Shinto/Shinshinto swords I saw in museums and collections in Japan 1980 etc were modern "acid" sashikomi? Now I wonder about Nakahara's (pp.83-87) comment saying the removal of sashikomi polish is wrong ... maybe now it is an incorrect comment?...also the togishi who refused to polish away an original sashikomi...was that a correct action?

 

There are many more questions that arise here and I think it best that I refrain from talking about polish in the future, until I actually know what I am talking about

(I wonder if acid was used in any way on my 2 WWII gunto with hadori?).

 

The pic I posted that "runagmc" asked about comes from the British Museum Catalogue "Cutting Edge". It is # 79...a tanto by Tenryushi Masataka (shinshinto). I understand that this collection of the British Museum were all polished under the supervision of the Monbusho and the NBTHK by 33 togishi, incl. Fujishiro, Hagi, Honami, Kishida and many others. Almost all the swords are polished in hadori, but some are sashikomi (if this is what we can still call it?). I wonder if acid was used in such a case as this #79 tanto?

I wonder if Kishida sensei can discuss these sashikomi/hadori swords from the Museum collection that he worked on?

Regards,

[Derek]

Thank you for this interesting discussion. Keep it coming!

 

Derek

[Stone]

Hi Kunitaro san,

Thank you for your honesty.

T.Norman.

[Marius]

I would really like to know form a knowledgeable person (a real polisher) if acid (and in what form) is used in polishing as an accepted technique.

 

I am an ignoramus, but I was under the impression that acid is a no go, because of the corrosion it can cause.

 

As Usagiya sword shop's kaji said: "the acid bites the steel deeply. Sometimes it rusts steel deeply under the steel surface".

 

But techniques change (as the whole debate about sahikomi and hadori shows), so maybe acid is an accepted technique now?

 

I wish Mr. Bob Benson could comment....

[Lee Bray]

Read "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing" by Setsuo Takaiwa, Yoshindo Yoshihara, Leon and Hiroko Kapp.

It details the use of copper sulfate, nitric acid and enamel which are "...sometimes used on swords to save time."

[Pete Klein]

So -- do you REALLY want to know what's in the sausage that's on the grill??? LOL

 

Sure tastes good though, doesn't it???

[Marius]

Read "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing" by Setsuo Takaiwa, Yoshindo Yoshihara, Leon and Hiroko Kapp.

It details the use of copper sulfate, nitric acid and enamel which are "...sometimes used on swords to save time."

 

Lee,

 

I have the book, thank you. The expression "to save time" does not indicate a proper and recommended polishing technique, or am I wrong here? I must revisit the book anyway...

 

Pete,

 

I don't eat meat, but you are right, I wouldn't want to know what this does to my body

[Pete Klein]

I don't eat meat

 

Mariuszk, I've been known to, from time to time...

[Brian]

People are once again looking for absolute statements...like ALL polishers do this..or that.

If a very dilute acid solution in conjunction with other materials (nugui?) can get desired results and can be neutralized properly..then I have no doubts that it is used by some polishers. The same way that I am sure that not all polishers would do that....and the same way I know that no polisher is going to reveal exactly what his technique is.

Debating it is not going to lead to any sort of conclusion. We just have to choose the best polishers with the best reputations, and trust that they will do the right thing. As Pete said, sometime you don't want to know what is inside what you are purchasing, you just trust the end result is good and the maker knows what he is doing.

 

Brian

[Tcat]

Without wishing to sound foolish I would like to pose a question - would some polishers from the old times (~500 years ago) have also used "special water" or secret water, as Mr. Kunitaro mentioned, or is this purely a post war thing?

 

It is possible that the process sprung entirely from the necessity of cranking out acceptable looking gunto, but something tells me that it is unlikely that the concept was born entirely from this.

 

Wouldn't the old polishers have had some kind of water with certain additives (only considering those lacking abrasive properties) which made the process "work better" or made the final product look a bit better...?

 

We call it "acid" now and have been trained (brainwashed?) to believe that the use of "acid" is a very new fad and very bad thing when it may have been used for many years..or is that ridiculous to suggest? (It is a given that acids derived from lab chemistry are obviously a different thing to a squeeze of lemon in a bowl of water or its equivalent, and that stronger acids may "work faster" but also entail the negative traits more associated with their use.) Any thoughts?

[cabowen]

The use of acid by many, if not most, polishers in Japan, has been sop for many years. It is used for different things, in different strengths, in different ways. I have talked to many about it and have heard the same sort of explanations.

 

I have also heard that acid was used to speed the polishing process during WWII. WWII era polishes on military blades are almost all uniformly poor by today's standards.

 

I can not say whether or not I have seen a "true" sashikomi polish. I will repeat what my polisher, who was trained by Ono Kokei (former Ningen Kokuho) told me: very few, if any, modern togi can do a traditional sashikomi polish.

[Ken-Hawaii]

By using carbon oxide on Ji, makes much darker fast and also protect the steel as well

 

Kunitaro-san, are you sure that you mean "carbon oxide?" The only two types of carbon oxide and carbon dioxide (CO2) & carbon monoxide(CO), neither of which would do anything for the ji that I can think of, & might do some harm to the togi.

 

Ken

[runagmc]

Ken, I believe it is made from high carbon steel that is allowed to breakdown (corrode) until there's just a carbon powder left.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Ain't no such animal, Adam. You might end up with a carbon-rich ferric oxide (rust), but not a carbon oxide. Sorry.

 

Ken

[kunitaro]

Kunitaro-san, are you sure that you mean "carbon oxide?" The only two types of carbon oxide and carbon dioxide (CO2) & carbon monoxide(CO), neither of which would do anything for the ji that I can think of, & might do some harm to the togi.

Ken

 

No I am not sure,,, What is "Kanahada" ?

[cabowen]

磁鉄鉱　Jitekko is Iron Oxide, I think.

 

磁鉄鉱 jitekko is magnetite.

[kunitaro]

磁鉄鉱 jitekko is magnetite.

 

Yes, I confirmed it. they use fine powder of magnetite.

And What is Kanahada ?

It is the spark from hummer/forging. what is it in chemical name ?

[cabowen]

 

 

Yes, I confirmed it. they use fine powder of magnetite.

And What is Kanahada ?

It is the spark from hummer/forging. what is it in chemical name ?

 

The chemistry of the slag that is hammered off when forging depends on the base material and perhaps other elements from the flux and water.

[kunitaro]

The chemistry of the slag that is hammered off when forging depends on the base material and perhaps other elements from the flux and water.

 

Thank you. Both of Jitteko and kanahada are used. and they have different effection said the polisher.

[kunitaro]

I spoke with the master polisher more than 2 hours today...

(It was election in Japan today as well)

 

Dear Trotter san,

Info about British museum collection,

Most of polisher did their best job. because it was honer job,

so, there is a lot of master polish in the collection.

we can not say how each polisher did, all of them have their own method.

People in Japan say "Fujishiro is "karikari(Crispy), Nagayama style is bright, etc,.

Well trained polisher each other and very experienced people can see who did, and which style, Fujishiro style, Honnami style, Nagayama style etc,.

 

A story of polishing a sword of British museum. One of the best student of Fujishiro did a katana of British museum, He did his best with traditional way. It took one and half month. and think about preparation such as Kanahada, jizuya,hazuya making by hand, It is almost 2 month job. he did really good job.

but,he got paid 300000JPY include Shirasaya and Habaki, It is less than 100000JPY/month.

He was happy with his job, but, he was not happy with money, so, he said he doesn't want to do it again.

and He had another offer from other museum, so, he asked 500000JPY, then the museum didn't want to pay,,,,

If you have family and kids (high school university,,,), you can not work $1000/month.

A lot of dealers and collectors want to pay $1000 for a normal commercial katana,,,,,so, the polisher need to polish 5 or more katanas in one month,

the time become priority for their income. so, they are trying their best to find a way to make good polish quickly...

There is not only acid, more new material for neutralization after acid, or some are using modern polishing oil for industrial machine. also, inventing Polishing machine, Hadori machine, etc,...

 

Another story,,

The master polisher did a katana by himself, because, he liked the blade, so, he did it how he like, and gave it to his client,

After one week, the client came back and told him that he could recognize the polishing was done by his student. color of jitetsu, activities etc, something different what he expect or what he knows, so, the client asked him to do it again by himself, he doesn't mind to pay extra, said the client,

He(the master polisher) was kind of pissed off, so, he let his student to do quick job,

Then the client was very happy....

 

He said, some people have big knowledge, but, doesn't understand...

 

Look for cheap and quick polish is not good, but, paying high price with blind eye is not good either....

I think we have to develop or grow our eye (not only knowledge) before we suspicious polisher's secret.

This is for myself as well.

[almeister]

Kunitaro San ,

Please give opinion on 1921 gendaito done in full sashikomi polish in Japan 18 months ago .

Thanks , AlanK

[kunitaro]

And This is link of JP forum about polishing sword.

The thread title is "I want to be a polisher"

http://ikura.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/knife/1215423467/

they are talking a lot about acid treatment openly.

some are saying that " I asked the polisher, he said he had never used acid" and other said "If you can not recognize acid polish by yourself, that is your problem" or some young polisher is saying "without knowing acid polish, i can not eat." etc.

I am not going to translate, If you are interested in, Please try google or something, maybe you can get some idea...

[kunitaro]

Alank san,

This is an example of acid polish.

[John A Stuart]

Post #122 s really interesting in that forum. John

[almeister]

Kunitaro San ,

I thank you for replying to my post !

I'm guessing that you would be suggesting my blade is of reasonable polish with perhaps some use of acid applied to the polishing technique ? Although different blades/steels differ in polish outcome , are you suggesting similarities between your lower picture & my lower picture # 5581 ?

Again I Thank You !

AlanK

[george trotter]

Kunitaro san,

thank you for the information. It shows me that I did not know the "terrible secrets" of polishing in Japan. This is probably because I always look to collect swords in "good - excellent" original polish, so I have never had to have a sword polished in Japan...so I thank you for informing me of the "problems" to look for if I have a sword polished in the future.

 

From what your polisher friends (and your link "I want to be a polisher" ) are saying I understand that:

Acid polish has become common.

Making a living is important and I understand how this can force a polisher to do a "quick" finish.

So, maybe it is time all kanteisho should say something about the quality of the polish also? If a sword cannot get a paper because of a flaw etc, maybe, if acid finish is a flaw, a sword should not get a paper if it is acid finished?

 

I also understand that a polisher does a quality polish for a museum...his best job...as it is a matter of his honour.

In the case of the British Museum polish (my pics) it means that this sashikomi is a best job...done without acid.

As the polisher decided himself which polish to do on the sword...it must mean that some yumei togishi still think sashikomi is more appropriate than hadori for some swords...also, this means that quality of sashikomi must be equal quality to the hadori polish here.

 

What you say about polishers also means that if a collector (like us) wishes a good sashikomi polish he can ask for it from a high experience togishi and say...I will pay extra...please do not use acid and the polisher will obey. This means that it is possible that not "all" post 1954 sashikomi polishes are low quality acid finish?

 

A question: All my RJT swords are made in traditional forging, polishing, testing etc...If "all gunto" are acid polished as has been said, does it mean RJT polish also?... Is there some evidence that this is the case (or just rumour?)? I just looked at part 6 of instructions for RJT swords (see "articles")...it is about polishing RJT blades...it does not say anything about acid finish of hamon...just "yakiba borderline will be wiped with nugui", which to me seems to be meaning sashikomi type finish....What about Yasukunito polish?

 

One last question: Is acid used equally in hadori polish also?

Regards,

[cabowen]

What you say about polishers also means that if a collector (like us) wishes a good sashikomi polish he can ask for it from a high experience togishi and say...I will pay extra...please do not use acid and the polisher will obey. This means that it is possible that not "all" post 1954 sashikomi polishes are low quality acid finish?

 

You can only get it if you ask a polisher that can do it. As noted, traditional sashikomi is rarely done.

 

 

 

A question: All my RJT swords are made in traditional forging, polishing, testing etc...If "all gunto" are acid polished as has been said, does it mean RJT polish also?... Is there some evidence that this is the case (or just rumour?)? I just looked at part 6 of instructions for RJT swords (see "articles")...it is about polishing RJT blades...it does not say anything about acid finish of hamon...just "yakiba borderline will be wiped with nugui", which to me seems to be meaning sashikomi type finish....What about Yasukunito polish?

 

Look at the polishes and in many cases the use of acid is evident. You can assume that acid was used in polishing many, if not most blades during the war. Acid is not only used to finish the hamon, but for other things as well. Fujishiro Matsuo once commented that they could polish one Yasukuni-to a day. Acid use by the Fujishiro school is known. Doubtful you could polish a sword a day without it....

 

 

One last question: Is acid used equally in hadori polish also?

Regards,

 

Maybe not equally but it is used. As I said, it is not only used for finishing the hamon.

[cisco-san]

...this is really an eye opening thread !!!!