TV series needs the name of a 19th century Tosho/Swordsmith

[SimonTV]

Hi All,

 

New to the board - seems like a goldmine of information.

 

I'm a researcher on a television series for a US broadcaster, and I'm attempting to find a tosho/swordsmith character who operated in the period 1780-1850.

 

I've spent a few 'crash course' days learning as much about the katana as possible. It's an incredibly fascinating area of history. The series is not focused primarily on this topic though - this is very much a 'side story'. But I'd love it to be a fascinating and compelling one.

 

However, for the period in which this story must fit (1780-1850), I'm struggling to find any named swordsmiths. I'm in the process of speaking with experts, but I stumbled across this site and thought that one of you may have some info or a name. Ideally, it would be one of the most revered swordsmith's of his era. Within the date range is vital though.

 

Apologies for contributing only with a request for info. But if any of you can recommend any names or leads, I would be incredibly grateful indeed.

 

Many thanks!

 

Simon T

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Simon,

Kiyomaro, one of the most important of all smiths ever, worked at the tail end of your date range.

Grey

[cabowen]

Kiyomaro was the most skilled and a sort of Japanese Van Gogh (he had a roller coaster life, alcohol problems, and committed suicide at a rather young age...A very colorful character....

 

In my mind, the most important smith of that era was Suishinshi Masahide. He launched a revival of old (circa 1300) sword making methods and attracted upwards of a 100 students from all over the country. He wrote one of the earliest books on sword making techniques and is credited for bringing to light many of the secrets of the craft. Many of today's smiths can trace their lineage back to Masahide or one of his students.....

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Don't forget Naotane

[Wickstrom]

Imho Masahide was indefinitely the master of the shin-shinto era, he spent his whole life observing and studying the sword to bring back the fundamentals and functionality of a sword versus it being used as an aesthetic status symbol of the era, And as Chris said, many of today's most prominent smiths originated from Masahide's school such as the Gassan lineage.

[sencho]

Simon,

 

You will probably find more experts lurking here than anywhere else you can go!

 

Any particular region of Japan??

 

Cheers

[Toryu2020]

Simon -

You could hardly do better than Masahide as already mentioned. Worked in Edo, influenced artists from all over the country, wrote books and his revivalist teaching mirrors the revivalist trends in other arts, religion and politics of the times. His dates fit your timeframe and many who know swords will know the name, though Kiyomaro may be more well known.

 

you won't need an expert for this one just google him...

-t

[Jean]

In fact Thomas, I knew Masahide by name years before being aware of Kiyomaro

[Toryu2020]

Alas there have been more books written about Kiyomaro than Masahide since that time my venerable friend... :D

-t

[nihonto1001]

Simon:

 

It is important to note the correct pronunciation of these names:

 

The letter A is pronounced "ah" phonetically; E, "ay"; I, "ee"; O, "oh"; U, "oo".

 

For example Masahide would be pronounced "Mah-sah-he-day"; Kiyomaro, "kee-yoh-mah-roh".

 

Jon

[Jacques D.]

About pronunciation,

 

Dixit Harry AFU Watson :

 

I as the I in SKI

 

A as the A in FATHER

 

O as the O in GO

 

U as U in LUKE

 

E as E in BED

[sencho]

For example Masahide would be pronounced "Mah-sah-he-day"; Kiyomaro, "kee-yoh-mah-roh".

Jon

 

Jon,

 

As Jacques also pointed out, the "e" is not pronounced "ay"... it should be pronounced "eh" , a short pure vowel sound rather than a diphthong "ay" or "ei"

 

Mah-sah-he-deh

 

Cheers...

[sanjuro]

Jean.

I knew Masahide by name years before being aware of Kiyomaro

 

So you and Masahide were on a first name basis? I wasnt aware you were quite that old. The years have been very kind to you.... Must be the constant diet of frogs legs. :D

[Jean]

Im"Perth"inent walaby, for your information my true name is McLeod

[sanjuro]

Im"Perth"inent wallaby ............ Very good Jean.

Obviously you are of the French McLeods. Remember though, "There can be only one", and you have a Scots kinsman out there somewhere with a Masamune blade he'd like to show to you. :D

[Jean]

Rats, I had forgotten

[sanjuro]

As I see it Jean, there is something you should never do..... Never allow a Scotsman who owns a masamune blade, (particularly a Scotsman who is wearing a skirt) offer to show it to you. (The blade I mean). :D

Always remember that no one lives forever (well almost no one). And if the worst comes to the worst then you can always quit when you're a head. :lol:

[Ted Tenold]

Hi All,

 

New to the board - seems like a goldmine of information.

 

I'm a researcher on a television series for a US broadcaster, and I'm attempting to find a tosho/swordsmith character who operated in the period 1780-1850.

 

I've spent a few 'crash course' days learning as much about the katana as possible. It's an incredibly fascinating area of history. The series is not focused primarily on this topic though - this is very much a 'side story'. But I'd love it to be a fascinating and compelling one.

 

However, for the period in which this story must fit (1780-1850), I'm struggling to find any named swordsmiths. I'm in the process of speaking with experts, but I stumbled across this site and thought that one of you may have some info or a name. Ideally, it would be one of the most revered swordsmith's of his era. Within the date range is vital though.

 

Apologies for contributing only with a request for info. But if any of you can recommend any names or leads, I would be incredibly grateful indeed.

 

Many thanks!

 

Simon T

 

Hello Simon,

 

I this regard, please do a better job than others in the past. While we enjoy seeing the topic of our enthusiasms on TV, it's frustrating when it gets so screwed up that we spend time correcting the mis-information that is spun for sensationalism to the unfamiliar masses.

 

Obviously, cinema is the first and largest guilty party to this, but even in smaller productions there are lame examples of ignorant and/or apathetic researchers and producers. As an example; I watched a program on Miyamoto Musashi some years back, hosted by the National Geographic Channel. Among the points of contention I had, they narrated that he was so admired that they even named one of their largest Battleships in his honor. This was blatently inaccurate as the Imperial Japanese Navy named their Battleships after provinces, not ancient swordman. I breifly and politely emailed to let them know of their misinformation and received a righteously indignant response from their "researcher" was that their research staff were of the highest caliber and credentials, and all their content is cross checked and held to the highest degree. My response was that the researchers were incompetant boobs because true and accurate information was available in the most cursory searches, and I would no longer watch NGC because if I couldn't trust NGC to accurately research a subject I knew a little about, how the hell could I trust their information on a subject I knew nothing about?

[Jean]

On TV, a hood was killed by another one, he died from a 45mm bullet fired by a Colt. I did not know till yesterday that Colt was manufacturing cannons...

 

I dread specialists...

[sanjuro]

I have had a little experience of researchers for documentaries, and by and large they do their jobs thoroughly. Unfortunately, its when the directors and producers get involved that the sensationalism creeps in. Under the impression that the general public are as ignorant as they themselves appear to be, they deal very offhandedly with the facts and very seriously with their own assumed creativity. There seems to be a general assumption among media people that the truth isnt sensational enough as it stands. The result is the crap we end up having rammed down our throats as documentaries or expose's. Historical fiction is even less discerning in the use of facts, and predictably ends up containing very little identifiable fact, almost no fidelity as to period and absolutely nothing that hasnt been corrupted with generous quantities of the director's imagination.

Sadly, whatever comes out of this production thats being researched here, will undoubtedly conform to the same unimpressive misquoted and sensationalised archetype as all the other media rubbish.

[Bazza]

Many years ago I watched a TV program made in Australia by a still-popular science show where it was claimed that the samurai used ball-milling techniques to pre-process the ore used to make swords. Even a professor from a famous Australian University was on the program talking about it. I phoned the very attractive researcher/presenter to tell her this simply was not true, and all she wanted to do was get me off the phone so she could "move on". No interest whatsoever that she might have been guilty of peddling sensationalist untruths. Does any Aussie remember this show??? I also wrote a letter to the professor asking what his sources were, because I had no such information in any of my references, nor had I heard of it in all my years of study and collecting Japanese swords. No reply. I still have the video and my copy of the letter I wrote somewhere in the chaos of my "library". I can only think that somewhere, somehow, someone confused naturally occurring "sand iron" with the manufactured product from a ball-milling process. Now I suppose someone will tell me that the samurai DID use ball-milling... I hope Simon strenuously resists any kind of sensationalising. I wonder if a reading of "Musui's Story: The Autobiography of a Tokugawa Samurai" would add a social dimension to Simon's research into the samurai era. Incidentally, I just discovered that Musui in this story was the father of Katsu Kaishu, the captain of the ship to the USA escorting the first Japanese delegation to San Francisco in 1860.

 

Regards,

BaZZa

aka Barry Thomas.

[Toryu2020]

Gee Keith, I guess our poor guest should not even have bothered huh?

[sanjuro]

Thomas.

 

An observation that became an indictment perhaps? Sorry for sounding so negative there, but it isnt the researchers fault at all. They do what they do and sometimes quite exhaustively. I have the utmost respect for research people because it is a painstaking and often thankless job, and I have at times done that work myself. I just have a very dim view of so called 'creative' personnel in the media because of the disregard they have for facts they dont see as interesting enough to keep someone awake. Personally I would rather see a program that was factual. If I want pure fiction I'll watch a Harry Potter movie. :D

[cabowen]

Gee Keith, I guess our poor guest should not even have bothered huh?

 

No kidding! Another warm NMB welcome!

[sanjuro]

Simon.

Since my co-forumites consider me to have been less than charitable in greeting you, I shall address myself directly to you in an effort to 'warm up' my welcome.

 

Welcome to the exalted cyber halls of the NMB. May we lighten your load and light your path in the quest for whatever it is that you are questing for. :D

[Ted Tenold]

Yes, and I feel I may have been the first to trod, and it was not my intention. Welcome Simon, and thank you for taking an interest.

 

There was a production about Masamune done some years back also. I was asked for recommendation of a person that was knowledgeable about Masamune and his students, spoke English, but also that was perferrably not in Japan (due to travel costs and budgetary constraints). I recommended Bob Benson since he has studied Soshu den for decades and obviously fit the other qualifications. Bob was never contacted, but the production somehow hooked up with a rather notorious fellow of dubious reputation in the San Francisco area. Those in the area that have had to contend with him will know of whom I speak. Very disappointing.

 

"If you must choose....chose wisely".

[Brian]

Would be nice if Simon was following this at least..or responding.

Lots of good suggestions, hopefully the researchers are just away researching frantically.

 

Brian

[SimonTV]

Thanks very much for all your help and advice guys. It's been incredibly helpful. Leads on here have helped me open up a fascinating world of Edo swordsmiths!

 

Kiyomaro and Masahide are vying for centre stage in my scene - although because of the interesting character details, it looks like Kiyomaro might snatch it.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Edit: must have been viewing an old version of this thread on my browser, because upon refreshing to re-read my response I saw several new posts. I'll read them now and follow up...

 

So am fully up to speed now. Thanks for your responses - and for the observations about the industry, some of which are quite near the mark. I won't say which ones

 

Rest assured that people like me working on this production are totally aware of the problems some documentaries have. Drama is the main culprit a lot of the time - and researcher/director struggles do exist - but the awareness of factual accuracy and perhaps more importantly, the accuracy and relevance of the historical thesis, is completely paramount. These days at least.

 

All of the people working on this show are passionate about history - there are more than 3 of us with phds! - and we just want to get accurate history out there that's surprising, informative, and enjoyable. We spend hours in thr library and top experts to help us But It does have to look great and be dramatic and emotional too. Because that's what gets the wider audience hooked. And anything that gets a wider audience watching history shows is an amazing thing in my opinion! And a passion of mine.

 

But then there's no point lots of people watching stuff that isn't true, or is fudged. There's no reward in that for us at all. In fact, it's the worst thing we could do. And we all know that.

 

I found all the 'insights' fascinating and important, so no need to apologise for any comments (thanks though, Keith). I'd rather hear what people think is wrong with history on tv than not. I just hope I've gone some way to convincing you that things are not all like you might think.

 

Thanks again for all your help and friendliness.

 

Simon

[Brian]

Thanks for the update Simon, much appreciated. I am sure you will find a wide audience for your production here. Best of luck, and please keep us updated.

 

Brian