Advice for new collectors from an old dog

[Hoshi]

Dear all,
 

A little grace and understanding goes a long way. 
 

When I first posted on NMB, years ago, I had purchased a mumei shinshinto blade, a humble beginning. 

 

I was greeted in the replies by Darcy who generously spent his time explaining attributions to me, he was graceful in his every words. 
 

He could have sneered and said it was a paperweight. After all, he was dealing in Koto masterpieces. There was nothing for him in this sword to appreciate. But he wasn’t dismissive - instead, he saw rightly that this was an entry into the world of Nihonto. 

 

Over the years, I came to the conclusion that there is truly no point in lecturing on what “ought to be collected” - the reality is set by the market participants, there is no central planning committee that sets prices. It is all supply and demand. 
 

What matters is honesty. Honest description of the items, genuine effort to depict reality as it is. Markets require information to function correctly. 
 

Whatever the level one collects at, there is always a bigger fish who - in comparison - will make one’s entire collection fit into the “paperweight” category. Tokubetsu Juyo grandmaster sword? Well, there is a Jubun one that is longer, with a more complete nakago, and a single mekugi ana that belonged to the Emperor. 
 

The Jubun collectors can look down on the Tokuju collectors. The Tokuju collectors can look down on the Juyo collectors, and the Juyo collectors can take it out on the Hozon collectors, and so on. Trivially true statement. 
 

But there is no point to it. Live and let live, learn and respect others, fight for truth, and don’t fall for delusions. 

 

Best,

 

Hoshi 

[Alex A]

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

 

I also wonder why many of the “seniors” on this excellent Forum are not “calling out” this ridiculously elitist behaviour.…

further insults awaited

 

 

No doubt they have been down this road once too often., Colin

[Scogg]

Thank you for your calm and thoughtful perspective, Hoshi.
 

I'd like to remind everyone that Brian is still dealing with ongoing health issues. Part of the reason I’ve been made moderator is to help ease his load during this time where he is distracted by serious real life challenges.
 

When discussions turn uncivil or overly contentious, it undermines those efforts and risks adding unnecessary stress to someone who is already going through a lot. Out of respect for Brian, the forum, myself, and maybe most importantly: for one another. I’m asking everyone to please be mindful of their tone, exercise patience, and prioritize civility in their interactions.
 

This is now the third or fourth thread that’s begun to spiral, and I’d really prefer not to lock another one. I trust that as a group of adults, we’re capable of letting some things go, at least for now. In support of Brian and the forum.
 

Sincerely,
-Sam

[John C]

5 hours ago, Hoshi said:

When I first posted on NMB, years ago, I had purchased a mumei shinshinto blade, a humble beginning. 

Hoshi:

I'll echo your humble beginning. My first posted sword elicited a fair amount of banter, eventually being labeled "a turd" by one of the long-time folks. It was a little disheartening, however I still like the sword because it has some unique and not-often seen features. Not bad for a "turd."

John C.

[Toki]

13 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

This thread has been heavily “cleaned up” by admin thus removing just about all of the malicious, spiteful, sneering, insulting and derogatory comments from @rayhan but even after that I wonder if any newbies reading a thread that was intended to guide them will actually think “yeah, I really want to get into all this”.

 

As a newbie, I just observe, try to learn as much from the conversation when it´s not full of salt and ignore the fighting really.

[Tcat]

On 8/25/2025 at 6:45 AM, When Necessary said:

Hoorah! I managed to tick all the bad boxes with this one!

 

Yahoo Auction ✔️

Cheap - $1,500 ✔️

Suriage✔️

Kanbun Shinto ✔️

Very shallow sori ✔️

Dodgy old green paper ✔️

 

And yet it just passed Tokubetsu Hozon. 🤔

You did not tick all the boxes. Where is mumei? Do it with suriage mumei Shinto and we’ll be impressed. 

[Rivkin]

21 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I also wonder why many of the “seniors” on this excellent Forum are not “calling out” this ridiculously elitist behaviour.…

further insults awaited

 

?

 I don't think it was bad.... maybe 150 milliguidos at times.

Nihonto always had unusual reputation among other sword collectors. Very cliquey, lots of people with condescending-patronizing attitudes ever-ready to explain how others need to live and collect. Getting harder year by year to find someone not pushing a statement he is Tanobe san's student, friend or successor. Used to be people resisted placing Japan-specializing folks in charge of some general Asian studies department, fearing they can end up with a cultist having zero general perception and massive commitment to "Japanese means perfect" metric.

 

The problem, today its about the same or worse in any field. Would it be a "Middle Eastern" topic, in the end Russian dealers and "scholars" would have written long letters to Russian security services-assassination division complaining the glory of Imperial scholarship is under assault, while American and EU "scholars" would have kept arguing whether per Edward Said a white person can have an opinion on the subject.

 

I long wondered why it became so versus, my grandfather's generation, and realized it is first and foremost the collector who's changed. Just looking at my father's generation collectors:

One collected Chagall. Which meant he knew Chagall, was responsible for a portion of Chagall's archive, had a significant weight in the artistic community. Was a director of a research lab.

Another collected old masters. Successful documentary film maker with a substantial standing in the art world. Taught subjects like aesthetic of film. Was a subject of epigrams penned by couple of first tier poets.

By the way, neither was an aristocrat, quite new people of the XXth century by every metric.

 

But by comparison today's collector is .... democratic. He takes a condescending tone or better yet - a title, as a sign of "scholarship", as a stimulus to name drop about how much he learned from this person. Constantly trying to guess which people he has to publicly praise at any fortunate occasion, and whom he has to no less publicly despise. 

 

The rot is everywhere: Stone's book is still very important in arms and armor 100 years later, Dean's works are seldom cited but still interesting. Take by comparison the star of modern arms and armor world, Pierre Terjanian, director at MFA. Two monographs listed as publications, you can read both online.... 

Usual defense is "he had to write for a general public!". As if these people also produced "serious literature" or 100 years ago Stone toiled for post-Ph.D. readers only.

Not a single person in a museum or academic world today carries any significant perception of anything between North Africa and China, and everything is managed "among friends". Brew the coffee and Worship me, and you might even be chosen as a successor. Would one not expect "scholars" and senseis to be spreading like locusts?

 

Rotten times. Rotten because people refuse to build and protect what matters.

[When Necessary]

9 hours ago, Tcat said:

You did not tick all the boxes. Where is mumei? Do it with suriage mumei Shinto and we’ll be impressed. 

But if it's mumei, it can't paper as 'Paperweight' - only as 'Tokubetsu-turd'. 😬

Edited August 27 by When Necessary
New ranking system established below.

[Rawa]

5 hours ago, John C said:

Hoshi:

I'll echo your humble beginning. My first posted sword elicited a fair amount of banter, eventually being labeled "a turd" by one of the long-time folks. It was a little disheartening, however I still like the sword because it has some unique and not-often seen features. Not bad for a "turd."

John C.

Dunno how you learn about sword appreciation. Maybe you have a lot of shows/group meetings. You can see many examples irl. 

[When Necessary]

5 hours ago, John C said:

Hoshi:

I'll echo your humble beginning. My first posted sword elicited a fair amount of banter, eventually being labeled "a turd" by one of the long-time folks. It was a little disheartening, however I still like the sword because it has some unique and not-often seen features. Not bad for a "turd."

John C.

Maybe the 'old dogs' of the forum could put together a new ranking system and issue papers to we lesser mortals?

 

'Turd' > 'Tokubetsu Turd' > 'Paperweight' > 'Tokubetsu Paperweight'.

 

That would really clarify our place in the pecking order.

[Alex A]

Think there are old threads for newbies by the older dudes that didn't turn into bickering contests.

 

Just in case newbies a bit lost in all this.

 

Im lost, lol

 

From memory, basic less bias advice.

[Shugyosha]

There are articles on collecting written by Guido and Paul Bowman available in the downloads too. 

 

Dee's comments have thrown up a number of questions.

 

I'm now wondering about the best way to store and display turds, for which, perhaps a turd kakke would be appropriate?

 

It also begs the question of whether or not you can in fact polish a turd and, if so, would overuse of uchiko ruin the polish? Should we discourage amateur turd polishers? Should you oil your turds periodically..???

 

Optimal shape size and sori?? I'd best stop now. 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Turd collectors take note.....!
 

 

 

[When Necessary]

10 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

There are articles on collecting written by Guido and Paul Bowman available in the downloads too. 

 

Dee's comments have thrown up a number of questions.

 

I'm now wondering about the best way to store and display turds, for which, perhaps a turd kakke would be appropriate?

 

It also begs the question of whether or not you can in fact polish a turd and, if so, would overuse of uchiko ruin the polish? Should we discourage amateur turd polishers? Should you oil your turds periodically..???

 

Optimal shape size and sori?? I'd best stop now. 

 

You just made me spit out my Earl Grey!

🤣🤣🤣

[When Necessary]

6 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Turd collectors take note.....!
 

 

 

I'm really glad you posted that incredibly informative video John. It was only a matter of time before someone weighed in and said that "polishing turds should be left to trained professionals only"! 😂

[Shugyosha]

Actually there is some guidance on display and conservation available, although in the west rather than in Japan. That said, this turd is actually museum quality so I'm not sure how it would apply to the home environment:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyds_Bank_coprolite

[Mark S.]

Life is too short guys and gals… life is too short… 

[Schneeds]

Advice on the internet is free; you can take it or leave it.  Personally, I like reading the variety of view points expressed here on the forum and I think it's almost always well intentioned.  The advice given here is largely the same and in line with the advice I've read here over and over again, so I don't understand the controversy.  

 

On the other hand, baiting and mocking people for sharing their experience and views is counter productive and preventative of those people (especially new) coming here to learn and get into the hobby.   

[Rayhan]

On 8/27/2025 at 11:38 AM, Shugyosha said:

There are articles on collecting written by Guido and Paul Bowman available in the downloads too. 

 

Dee's comments have thrown up a number of questions.

 

I'm now wondering about the best way to store and display turds, for which, perhaps a turd kakke would be appropriate?

 

It also begs the question of whether or not you can in fact polish a turd and, if so, would overuse of uchiko ruin the polish? Should we discourage amateur turd polishers? Should you oil your turds periodically..???

 

Optimal shape size and sori?? I'd best stop now. 

 

I am So glad the article by Guido was brought up - Some highlights from Guido's article:

 

But what is art, and what kind of nihontō qualify as bijutsu tōken? Beauty, of course, lies in the eye of the beholder, and even "the experts" are not always in agreement. However, borderline cases are few and far between since certain standards and "laws" have been established and are universally acknowledged.

 

The artistic features of the Japanese art sword can be recognized and studied since they can be shown and explained. This knowledge has nothing to do with spiritual studies, Zen Buddhism, iaidō training or sentiment; it is a question of mere study. The same methods applied to recognize architecture, paintings, sculptures and music according to their style can be used for swords, which can be dated and allotted in a school, province etc.

 

The ultimate preparation available to the collector who would like to find art swords is at once the most elementary and the most sophisticated preparation of all. It is to learn the subject. No one knows instinctively what a good nihontō looks like, nor does anyone know intuitively the elements that constitutes it. The collector must absorb the basics in a gradual accretion of understanding. Likewise, good taste in nihontō is not an instantaneous revelation. It's usually a gradual development. Most collectors readily concede the improvement of their tastes over previous years. Good taste requires careful nurturing and tending for a mature blossoming. A natural good eye means a head start, an enviable beginning, but it is not enough. Just as a good voice without musical training will not enable one to sing like Pavarotti, so also a good eye will not assure a fine collection without some application and study.

 

In order to appreciate the different types of beauty one should be equipped with as much knowledge as possible and a seeing eye regarding a good blade. Therefore it is useful to memorize the characteristics of the different "roads", schools and masters, so that when looking at a nihontō one knows where, when and by whom it might have been made. This is the only basis on which to achieve judgement about the differences in quality.

 

The collector who boasts "I don't know anything about nihontō; I just buy what I like" makes a statement that is not very profound. Of course he buys what he likes. If he doesn't buy what he likes, what does he buy? If he doesn't buy what he likes, he had better not collect. The collector who doesn't know anything about nihontō will benefit by learning. If he should be blessed with innate good taste, he may develop expertness by listening and looking, like gifted students who earn degrees without cracking a book. For most of us, however, reading, discussing, examining, and studying are an essential though happy regimen for graduation to connoisseurship. The emotional response to a superb nihontō may be as intense for the collector who never learned any "technical" information as for the expert, just as the emotional response to music may be as great for the listener who can't hum a tune as for the trained musician. But the intellectual pleasure, if not the emotional response, of the musician is profoundly enhanced by his understanding of theme, harmony, and counterpoint. So also is the intellectual pleasure greater for the collector who understands sugata, hada, hamon, hataraki, school, smith.

 

It also needs to be mentioned that the features found in a good blade become only obvious and recognizable when brought to light by a skillful polisher. The togishi needs to know how the blade was originally designed in order to bring out the characteristics the smith intended, since each style requires a slightly different technique. A poor polisher can change the character of a blade in a way that a good old kotō blade looks like an unimportant shinshintō, or a very good polisher might make a mediocre blade look almost like a good one. It takes a lot of knowledge and experience to judge this correctly. An unpolished sword shows none of the criteria that make a sword a good sword except the form, and even that only to a certain point.

 

On the other hand, there are lots of swords that are polished but without deserving this costly treatment; the reason is only that the owner thought that every Japanese blade should be polished. There are people that study for hours a sword that has been polished expensively and which has its origin in a forge of the Japanese Empire during WW II, and which shows absolutely no artistic features. The same can be said about many blades from the Sengoku period which are highly esteemed by many Western collectors just because they are kotō. Many of them are mass-produced, too, and don't reveal anything which could be called worth being collected.

 

And another big part of Western collections are blades produced by unimportant smiths, showing lots of forging faults, nondescript in form, hada and hamon, or just boring, because "weapons of Japanese origin" were collected instead of "art swords". All the swords of this lowest level are of course not to be classified accordingly, since the marks of schools, times, provinces or even masters can only be suspected. Certainly many of these blades show a kind of "quality"; it is even possible when looking at and examining the blade intensively that certain few details can be called beautiful or perfect, but nevertheless one should be advised against being occupied with blades of such a low level since bad swords spoil the eyes.

 

Some collectors seem to have a positive propensity for choosing those types of swords that are best classed as non-nihontō. Whatever they are, they're not true nihontō. They are utterly devoid of any artistic feature. Our misguided friend exhibits his non-nihontō "treasures" with such obvious pride and pleasure that one is placed in a quandary between insipid pretense and brutal honesty. Perhaps the better course is to avoid outright condemnation and to attempt a patient explanation of the basic requirements of a good nihontō, and a gentle comparison of his selections with those preferred by recognized experts. If the explanations and demonstrations fail to register after a few efforts, and irritation and frustration begin to mount, it may be best to desist and to accept the situation. The collector loves his monstrosities faithfully despite confrontation with genuine examples and rational explanations. In such cases further insistence would appear to be a deliberate effort to undermine his pleasure. He's entitled to the protection of the maxim of the ancient hedonists: "If the pleasure is equal, pushpenny is as good as philosophy". Our collector of non-nihontō has one advantage: his swords usually cost substantially less than sophisticated choices.

 

To summarize, if nihontō are worth the money they cost, they should be worth the time and effort they require to understand them. Learning nihontō, like learning any art form, is a gradual accumulation, a slow development of visual and critical acuity, a crystallization of standards, and finally complete rapport with the subject. There is no magic formula, and no secret shortcut: the road is tortuous The benefits of study may be perceived on three levels. At the basic level the collector learns the distinguishing characteristics of a nihontō: sugata; hamon and hada, and how to recognize them; types and classifications; origin, development, and decline. He begins to distinguish old from new, genuine from copy, crude from fine, commercial from art and other minutiae. He may make some poor choices, but he will learn to rectify his errors.

 

Often dealers, and some collectors, too, advise neophytes in maxim form: "buy your experience". It's a variant of "learn by your mistakes". They mean by this that the toll for mistakes exacted by the purse makes the most unforgettable lesson of all. This advice is tinged with cynicism. It is true, of course, that experience is a great teacher and we must all learn from her, but there is no wisdom in buying first and discovering the mistake second. As the Chinese sages reasoned, the experience by which one learns need not be one's own. One can learn from the experiences of others and save oneself costly errors. The capsule advice of the numismatists "buy the book before the coin" is much sounder advice. The coin book distinguishes the genuine from the counterfeit and gives dates, identification marks, and values. The coin collector avoids mistakes at the small cost of the book and the time to study its pages. In the same way the cost of a good library on nihontō is in most cases much less than that of the purchase of one nihontō that was priced for fine quality, but was actually inferior.

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

After reading the article again (Attached the PDF here also) I think he sums it up very nicely. 

Collecting[1].pdf

[When Necessary]

Guido was indeed a scholar and a gentleman whose presence is greatly missed on this forum. His wit and frequent sarcasm was always intended to enlighten, clarify and impart knowledge - never to belittle, humiliate or mock.

[Baka Gaijin]

"De gustibus non est disputandum"

 

 "I could have been a judge, but I didn't have the Latin" 

 

[Rayhan]

4 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Guido was indeed a scholar and a gentleman whose presence is greatly missed on this forum. His wit and frequent sarcasm was always intended to enlighten, clarify and impart knowledge - never to belittle, humiliate or mock.

Don't sell that monstrosity ok, keep it forever  

[Gakusee]

6 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Guido was indeed a scholar and a gentleman whose presence is greatly missed on this forum. His wit and frequent sarcasm was always intended to enlighten, clarify and impart knowledge - never to belittle, humiliate or mock.

 

Actually outside of online forums Guido is a great person, entertainer and intellectual. I like his sardonic wit and analytical mind. And as some of you know, his Japanese singing ability is also quite impressive. 

However, sometimes people on this and other forums could be friendly in person, but they just don’t behave “online”. 
 

Please focus on the positive sides of this hobby and do not expend energies bickering.