Low end nihonto

[jawob]

Forgive the stupid question, but why don't dealers have a section selling low end blades? Seems every week there is someone on the forum asking to buy nihonto at the $2k and under mark and buying from a trusted name would seem to insure sales. 

[lonely panet]

The same reason you dont see art deallers selling pictures from pre school kids

[Natichu]

Different dealers for different things I'd imagine. There are some dealers with more economical options. 

 

Touken Komachi has a lot of entry level options, along with the higher end:

 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_ja_tachi&katana.html

 

Seiyudo has their S-Line offerings:

 

https://world-seiyudo.com/product-category/s-line/

 

Nippontou has their Reasonable Japanese Sword section:

 

https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swordlist0.htm

 

At the end of the day, lots to be had, but it all depends on what a person's expectations are. Papered katana in good polish under $2000 US? Probably not. But a shorter blade, and/or some tolerance for wear and tear, and there are options out there it seems. 

 

(Note: of the three I only have experience with Touken Komachi, who have been phenomenal to deal with.)

[jawob]

16 minutes ago, lonely panet said:

The same reason you dont see art deallers selling pictures from pre school kids

Might have to disagree with your analogy. Understandable for some who deal in masterpieces. Not sure I'd call any hand forged blade pre school

[bnacorda]

you can get decent affordable ones but you have to really be confident in being able to discern quality. Typically, the San Francisco Token Kai has the best bargain sales on the last day of the show when dealers start slashing prices. Dont but from ebay though as that is vast field of land mines for the beginner. I've purchased from Toukenkomachi albeit Shinshinto but papered for roughly 2k. I've also purchased really entry level swords for my son at the SF show for $900 and got a free tsuba to boot. Also lots of 2 for 1 deals there as well. So dont be too discouraged. However, do buy some quality books. Not as expensive as swords and you will get the eyeballs for when you're ready. I've been at this for a few years now and I'm still learning!

[Mushin]

Some dealers do try to do something like this. If you look at Seiyudo, a high end dealer in the Ginza district of Tokyo, they offer a category of quality, lower priced swords called the “S-Line.” To quote their own marketing line: “The S-line is our new brand to offer swords which are relatively inexpensive but have a high artistic value.” Pretty accurate if you ask me. At the same time, Ginza Choshuya has “Fine Swords” which boasts nice swords at a nice price. By and large, these dealers do offer decent quality blades in good condition at decent prices. Other sites have a mix of goods and many of their lower priced swords are usually of questionable quality, unlike what Seiyudo and Choshuya are trying to offer bargain-minded collectors.

[Rawa]

1 hour ago, jawob said:

Forgive the stupid question, but why don't dealers have a section selling low end blades? Seems every week there is someone on the forum asking to buy nihonto at the $2k and under mark and buying from a trusted name would seem to insure sales. 

Gendaito is a nihonto?

[Hokke]

55 minutes ago, lonely panet said:

The same reason you dont see art deallers selling pictures from pre school kids

Savage 

 

Made me spit my drink out you bastard

[jawob]

Thanks Bobby, that's exactly what I mean. Seems like a good marketing tool to include a wide range of buyers. I posted this question, not exactly for myself, but in wonder why a dealer wouldn't corner more of the market. 

[nulldevice]

$2000 is a weird price range. It’s kind of the middle ground between eBay old white paper blades with questionable attributions and getting into Hozon blades by lower ranked smiths and those with flaws. 
 

I saw a lot of these blades in Japan at the few stores I went into that were more tourist focused. Seemed like some of them dealt mainly in $3-5k and under pieces exclusively.

 

Check out the links above, as there are a few Japanese online dealers that have quite the selection of $2000ish swords and sometimes papered. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

This seller focuses on low end items, you will often see sold items on other sellers pages at inflated prices. 

 

https://tokyosword.myshopify.com/

[Lexvdjagt]

When someone looks for a Hozon papered katana at around 2K then the supply is simply on the low end. You will certainly encounter dealers in Japan selling swords for this price, often with some defects. Many of these blades will be sold between dealers or without ever going on any website. I think dealers in Europe and the US will be less tempted to deal in lower end blades because they won’t have a high profit margin. I think this particular market is extremely underrepresented by dealers, there is a lot of demand for blades in the 2-3K region sold within the EU or US. There is just a lot more to gain when you sell higher end blades, even if you wouldn’t sell them as quickly as a lower end blade. 
 

The lower end market is currently mostly populated by EBay sellers or sellers like @PNSSHOGUN listed. They offer blades for a low price, but often without papers or with defects. 
 

 

[Schneeds]

Tokyo-nihonto often deals in that price range. Nice website and photography and is a forum member. 

[jdawg221]

On 8/5/2025 at 8:50 PM, lonely panet said:

The same reason you dont see art deallers selling pictures from pre school kids

Maybe it's just me but I find this line of thinking rather ridiculous. The point of 90% of nihonto throughout history is for them to see usage. Plenty of these blades hyper optimized for use are usually on the cheaper end. Examples? Bungo takada, higo doutanuki, non zenjo mino, most hizen smiths, etc. Does the lower valuation of these blades equate them to "pictures from pre school kids", despite their extensive usage and words of appreciation from swordsmen that actually used them?

 

I actually use nihonto for kenjutsu, and personally the most interesting blades I've swung around are the budget blades you consider "preschool level". To add to this, some of my favorites I've ever handled are oei bizen works, specifically a kiyomitsu and morimitsu daito. Of course oei bizen stuff is held in very high regard, but it shows that the apparent visual quality of a blade does not equal a good sword. For example, I've handled a few swords from smiths that people hold in very high regard but the shitty kaga kiyomitsu I got for 1000 dollars somehow handles better despite near identical dimensions on paper. 

[lonely panet]

i understand your comment,  and it only comes from your level of collecting and experance.  when you understand that comment you will understand mine.

 

if you get enjoyment out of  studying the average sword,  you have gained  joy,  when you study high end art swords then you gain understanding to WHY they are called art swords.

 

its not a easy thing either.  thats why its a life long lesson

 

 

 

 

[Cola]

Have they never heard of the principle behind gateway drugs?

[Kantaro]

1 hour ago, Cola said:

Have they never heard of the principle behind gateway drugs?

nope

[Hokke]

8 hours ago, jdawg221 said:

Maybe it's just me but I find this line of thinking rather ridiculous. The point of 90% of nihonto throughout history is for them to see usage. Plenty of these blades hyper optimized for use are usually on the cheaper end. Examples? Bungo takada, higo doutanuki, non zenjo mino, most hizen smiths, etc. Does the lower valuation of these blades equate them to "pictures from pre school kids", despite their extensive usage and words of appreciation from swordsmen that actually used them?

 

I actually use nihonto for kenjutsu, and personally the most interesting blades I've swung around are the budget blades you consider "preschool level". To add to this, some of my favorites I've ever handled are oei bizen works, specifically a kiyomitsu and morimitsu daito. Of course oei bizen stuff is held in very high regard, but it shows that the apparent visual quality of a blade does not equal a good sword. For example, I've handled a few swords from smiths that people hold in very high regard but the shitty kaga kiyomitsu I got for 1000 dollars somehow handles better despite near identical dimensions on paper. 

The key is when you used the phrase “high regard”. Nihonto held in high regard is mostly on an artistic level. Yes there are those valued for their function as well if are wazamono, but in general, its art. You seem to have less interest in nihonto as an art and more for function, which is fine, but that isnt where value is attributed because the overwhelming majority of people who own nihonto do not “use” them. Personally there is a lot of art in the world like paintings and sculptures that I find terrible or ridiculous, take for example a painting of a Campbells soup can……ridiculous, and yet one sold for 11 million dollars. 

[Scogg]

I’m not a dealer, so please understand the following is speculation from a buyer/collector perspective. 
 

With lower end items inherently comes more flaws and issues, and things in poorer state of polish. These things cause more questions, and therefore more time spent during the attempted sale. With that, comes less satisfaction as the buyer learns more, becomes more experienced, and/or develops an eye for higher quality. All these things contribute to a sellers long term reputation, of which, I can only imagine, they value and want to maintain. So maybe the simple answer is, that the juice is not worth the squeeze. 
 

That being said, there’s no shortage of lower end items out there in the market, and even a few dealers out there who sell things at lower price points. 
 

Sincerely,

-Sam 

 

[ChrisW]

3 hours ago, Scogg said:

So maybe the simple answer is, that the juice is not worth the squeeze.

100% it is this. I have low-end pieces, but I don't even usually put them out at the show unless someone asks for them. I don't want to waste valuable table space on something that isn't worth haggling over. I'll use them as bargaining chips sometimes though.

[Rawa]

Low-end items teach you how good grade looks. Guys don't expect everyone to buy 10k nihonto as his first. Also market can go crazy with prices for some particular tosho. 

[Mushin]

I think this topic has been canvased fairly well but I think we should make a distinction between reasonably-priced, quality blades ( and I am really thinking here of the kinds of swords that Sieyudo.com puts into it's "S-Line" category) and what are being called "low-end" swords. To me, "low-end" is exactly what it emotes: commercial crap; a small step up from junk. Whereas, I think "reasonably priced" blades are a cut above commercial grade swords: decent quality Muromachi, Shinto and Shin-Shinto blades, for not huge dollars. They are in polish, they have few ware and kizu if any. They are not by top names but are often zaimei by decent smiths and papered. They range in price from an average of about $2400 to $6000. This is where a new collector or bargain-hunting collector would ideally want to be, IMHO. It is at this stage where much of the wisdom from the other thread about saving for a sword works best. It's a one-and-done purchase: no need for a polisher, or a new shirasaya, or a new tsuka-maki. It can be enjoyed from the minute it is unboxed. Moreover these are the kinds of pieces that are much easier to trade or sell for that next level acquisition. Buying in the $2,000 range may seem thrifty and wise, but often you are buying something not too far removed from "bottom-end" pieces that you will outgrow quickly and own for a long time unless you find another collector without knowledge or patience to do better. If you can't see into a blade, if you can't enjoy its crisp lines and clarity, then why buy it? It may be a cliche now but it is an incredibly important rule that should guide your mindset in this hobby: buy the best sword in your budget. So try to build up the best budget you can afford and don't be afraid to be patient. Better to buy one really decent sword for $3500 to $4500 than three pieces of junk for the same amount of money. At this price range, time is actually on your side more than it is at the deep end where collectors may have lots of money, but the pieces they are looking for are just not available. Happy hunting y'all!

[jdawg221]

11 hours ago, Hokke said:

The key is when you used the phrase “high regard”. Nihonto held in high regard is mostly on an artistic level. Yes there are those valued for their function as well if are wazamono, but in general, its art. You seem to have less interest in nihonto as an art and more for function, which is fine, but that isnt where value is attributed because the overwhelming majority of people who own nihonto do not “use” them. Personally there is a lot of art in the world like paintings and sculptures that I find terrible or ridiculous, take for example a painting of a Campbells soup can……ridiculous, and yet one sold for 11 million dollars. 

Very true, and while I definitely appreciate the art swords, its true I don't quite have the experience yet to really appreciate the finer points. However I still find it rather dumb to call budget swords "preschool level" or "inferior". One must remember that the blades that we are fortunate enough to to call budget today very well could've been relied on in the past to protect someone's life, or could've cost a lower ranked samurai months of saving. Of course there are kizu ridden messes out there which are flat out garbage, whether it be due to amateur restoration work or poor forging. Basically the point I was trying to make is that there are  plenty great interesting pieces out there for cheap, while there is also vastly more cheap garbage out there lol. All depends on what a buyer is looking for and what interests they have. I currently very much enjoy koshirae just as much as the blade itself and the history of the blade, but I would agree that a lot of the swords at the lower price range are not too great for study from an artistic or metallurgical standpoint. 

[Alex A]

For a while now been seeing TH swords going relatively cheap, waks for like $2500, even saw a Katana for $4000 with decent koshirae.

 

Whilst not the top name smiths of the school, they were from the school and worthy of TH.

 

If folks shop in that price range then that's what you have to live with.

 

Which many are happy to do so. You got to find your own price range and learn how to be content within it.

 

Ps, Known a few highly regarded collectors and know for a fact they do own such swords, its not all top end heavy. Like i said not so long ago, a well known Japanese dealer only owns one tanto and its not worth much at all.

[Rayhan]

You know after careful consideration i also think it's essential to have people buying out the low low cost nihonto. The hobby needs people like that, it helps those that want the best for their budgets (saved budgets or otherwise). If everyone was going after the better nihonto what would the rest of us do eh?

 

Especially the people here like @Hokke @Matsunoki @jdawg221 @jawob i think between you guys if you can take all the paperweights off the market and souley focus on those, we'd all have a clearer view of what's really out there. go forth gentlemen! 

[Matsunoki]

19 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

You know after careful consideration i also think it's essential to have people buying out the low low cost nihonto. The hobby needs people like that it helps those that want the best for their budgets (saved budgets or otherwise). If everyone was going after the better nihonto what would the rest of us do eh?

 

Especially the people here like @Hokke @Matsunoki @jdawg221 @jawob i think between you guys if you can take all the paperweights off the market and souley focus on those we'd all have a clearer view of whats really out there. go forth gentlemen! 

Showing yourself for the childish ego driven person that you are.

Do you think  this post will impress anyone?

You just carry on insulting, it says a lot about you. 

 

 

[Alex A]

Really no need for that Rayhan, though that's how these threads always end up.

[Rayhan]

36 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Showing yourself for the childish ego driven person that you are.

Do you think  this post will impress anyone?

You just carry on insulting, it says a lot about you. 

 

 

Oh man, I agree with you you get upset I don't agree with you you get upset, there is just no pleasing some super advanced dealers anymore.

[Matsunoki]

I’m not upset. You and your opinions on what everyone should do are not worth getting upset about.

I’d forgotten about it all, maybe you hadn’t?

let me add immature to my post above. 

[Trenchnut]

I have some Veteran bring backs. Honest swords that have been there. Being proud to own such a piece of history might qualify me to be added to your list Rayhan. Cheers