Gakusee Posted July 7 Report Posted July 7 So, to chime in on the death of Shintogo and his working period. I attach an extract from the Token Bijutsu magazine describing a famous JuBu, ex count Kanroji denrai and dated 1320. In the narrative, Tanobe sensei clearly demonstrates that he thinks this is by the master himself as he talks of this being one of his last works and bearing the typical (Shintogo’s) mei. Next, I also attach a blade dated 1324 in an interesting manner with unusual kanji for 4 (twice 2). The blade passed Juyo in the 1970s and therefore there is not too much detail in the Zufu apart from some generic text about Shintogo being the Soshu founder but having a more powerful expression than Awataguchi and also that the carving might have been made by Daishinbo. It seems to direct the reader to the master himself as opposed to students, etc. That latter tanto is a curious case. But at least the former one is not and indicates a later date of death than mentioned in this thread so far. 3 Quote
Rivkin Posted July 7 Report Posted July 7 17 minutes ago, Gakusee said: So, to chime in on the death of Shintogo and his working period. I attach an extract from the Token Bijutsu magazine describing a famous JuBu, ex count Kanroji denrai and dated 1320. In the narrative, Tanobe sensei clearly demonstrates that he thinks this is by the master himself as he talks of this being one of his last works and bearing the typical (Shintogo’s) mei. Next, I also attach a blade dated 1324 in an interesting manner with unusual kanji for 4 (twice 2). The blade passed Juyo in the 1970s and therefore there is not too much detail in the Zufu apart from some generic text about Shintogo being the Soshu founder but having a more powerful expression than Awataguchi and also that the carving might have been made by Daishinbo. It seems to direct the reader to the master himself as opposed to students, etc. That latter tanto is a curious case. But at least the former one is not and indicates a later date of death than mentioned in this thread so far. Thank you very much! Very impressive to recognize once again how the field's understanding advanced with digital. The volumes from 1960s and 1970s just don't cover it as modern tables like the ones Jussi produces do. Quote
Gakusee Posted July 7 Report Posted July 7 10 minutes ago, Rivkin said: Thank you very much! Very impressive to recognize once again how the field's understanding advanced with digital. The volumes from 1960s and 1970s just don't cover it as modern tables like the ones Jussi produces do. My pleasure. Jussi is outstanding in data collation. He is incredibly studious and industrious when it comes to that and indeed his very useful database shows the aforementioned tanto as the one that has the latest date (1324). It must be a curious example to study frankly. I do not think it has been elevated to TokuJu, at least as far as my limited understanding stretches, and I do not have any photos of it to try to assess some of the workmanship from partial photos (always fraught with risk, as Jacques will undoubtedly say). But also that nakago seems so punctured that even kanji assessment is unreliable. Jussi’s database also mentions the Juyo-69 tanto dated 1322. I need to do further digging and get hold of the Juyo Zufu when available / possible so that we can read what is said of it. However, I can attest that I have seen it exhibited in the Juyo exhibition and in fact was owned/managed by a friend. A very nice and stout, healthy blade. 1 Quote
Gakusee Posted July 7 Report Posted July 7 Attached from my own records the Juyo 69 tanto. Please excuse the horrible photo, which was taken in haste Quote
Brano Posted July 7 Report Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Gakusee said: Jussi’s database also mentions the Juyo-69 tanto dated 1322. I need to do further digging and get hold of the Juyo Zufu when available / possible so that we can read what is said of it. However, I can attest that I have seen it exhibited in the Juyo exhibition and in fact was owned/managed by a friend. A very nice and stout, healthy blade. Here is an automated translation of setsumei Tanto from session 69 Important Sword Designation No. 69, Measurements Nagasa: 25.8 cm, Sori: Uchi-zori, Motohaba: 2.3 cm, Nakago length: 10.9 cm, Nakago sori: Almost none. Shape Sugata: Hira-zukuri, Mitsu-mune, Mihaba is standard, Kasane is moderate, Features uchi-zori. Forging (Kitae) Kitae: Itame hada with some nagare, Ji-nie is well-developed, Chikei appears prominently, Bo-utsuri is visible, The steel is tightly forged. Hamon Hamon: Chu-suguha with ko-ashi, Slight kinsuji present, Nioiguchi is bright. Boshi Bōshi: Straight, turning slightly in ko-maru style with hakikake. Horimono Horimono: Omote: Plain ken (straight groove), Ura: Suken carved in flowing style. Nakago Nakago: Ubu, Kurijiri, Yasurime: Katte-sagari, Mekugi-ana: One, Omote: Two-character mei (signature) centered below the mekugi-ana, Ura: Dated inscription. Explanation Shintōgo Kunimitsu is effectively the founder of the Soshu tradition and is renowned for training three legendary swordsmiths: Yukimitsu, Masamune, and Norishige. His work, while reminiscent of the Awataguchi style at first glance, is distinguished by prominent chikei and kinsuji in the ji and ha. He excelled in suguha variations (ito, hosu, chu, hiro) and is considered one of the two greatest masters of tanto alongside Fujishiro Yoshimitsu. This hira-zukuri tanto exhibits typical late Kamakura-period traits, including standard mihaba, moderate dimensions, and uchi-zori. The itame hada mixed with nagare, along with pronounced ji-nie and chikei, showcases Kunimitsu’s characteristic workmanship. The chu-suguha hamon with a bright nioiguchi and slightly hakikake boshi further confirm this attribution. The blade’s strong, well-forged steel and the presence of a dated inscription on the nakago make it exceptionally valuable for historical study. This piece is recorded in the Kōzan Oshigata. 1 Quote
Lewis B Posted July 7 Author Report Posted July 7 Some very useful points of reference. According the the Nihonto Club Kunimitsu was active 1293-1312. It's interesting that Tanobe gives a longer active life for Shintogo on the basis of the quality of a particular blade ie the 1320 tanto. From the Koto Meizukushi Taizan. Shintogo is said to have been born in 1250 and according to this reference dies in his 63rd year, ie 1313. Question is, which source is the most reliable. Dating works from this period are notoriously difficult with many contradictions even within the old texts. Given photos are even less useful for observing certain features compared to oshigata, this tanto dated 1324 shows many of the signature Shintogo features, such as extensive chikei, fine kinsuji and yakikomi. Signed Shintogo Kunihiro. https://emuseum.nich.go.jp/detail?langId=en&webView=&content_base_id=100486&content_part_id=0&content_pict_id=0 The 1318 Kunihiro signed tanto also has yakikomi. Beyond that the poor quality B&W image gives up little to be able to pass judgement on the jiba. What doesn't make sense is why Kunihiro would be signing in his own right if his father was still alive and working. 1 Quote
Lewis B Posted July 7 Author Report Posted July 7 Another feature of the kuni kanji that's different to the Masters is the horizontal strike above the mirrored S. I've seen it several times on published Kunihiro Mei but not Shintogo's. I think I can make out a similar strike on my blade. Quote
Gakusee Posted July 7 Report Posted July 7 1 hour ago, Lewis B said: Some very useful points of reference. According the the Nihonto Club Kunimitsu was active 1293-1312. It's interesting that Tanobe gives a longer active life for Shintogo on the basis of the quality of a particular blade ie the 1320 tanto. From the Koto Meizukushi Taizan. Shintogo is said to have been born in 1250 and according to this reference dies in his 63rd year, ie 1313. Question is, which source is the most reliable. Dating works from this period are notoriously difficult with many contradictions even within the old texts. Given photos are even less useful for observing certain features compared to oshigata, this tanto dated 1324 shows many of the signature Shintogo features, such as extensive chikei, fine kinsuji and yakikomi. Signed Shintogo Kunihiro. https://emuseum.nich.go.jp/detail?langId=en&webView=&content_base_id=100486&content_part_id=0&content_pict_id=0 The 1318 Kunihiro signed tanto also has yakikomi. Beyond that the poor quality B&W image gives up little to be able to pass judgement on the jiba. What doesn't make sense is why Kunihiro would be signing in his own right if his father was still alive and working. Let me quote from Markus Sesko’s book on Masamune: “When it comes to dated works by Kunimitsu we are talking about a time from the first year of Einin (永仁, 1293) to the fourth year of Genkō (元享, 1324). The Kotō Mei Zukushi Taizen (古刀銘尽大全) quotes Kunimitsu´s year of birth as Kenchō two (建長, 1250) and his year of death as Shōwa one (正和, 1312), which does not match with his known dated signatures. Well, the information from the Kotō Mei Zukushi Taizen, especially the dates, must be taken with a grain of salt because it gives for each and every smith his year of birth and death. Such a comprehensive data was not known in earlier times and it is odd that the creator of this work suddenly “knew” all this at the time the publication was published for the first time, in the fourth year of Kansei (寛政, 1792).” I think it eloquently describes why the veracity of that source is dubious. And when it comes to Stan’s database, I do not think he has updated it recently. I believe that knowledge and understanding have moved substantially in the last 10-15 years since the database was put together. That is completely normal, as new blades emerge (well at least new / unknown to us) and the NBTHK keeps documenting new examples. Quote
Jacques Posted July 8 Report Posted July 8 What amazes me is that no one pays any attention to the shape of the nakago.... Quote
Alex A Posted July 8 Report Posted July 8 If NBTHK couldn't come to a decision, then what chance have you guys got here? I hope it all works out for you Lewis. Quote
reinhard Posted July 11 Report Posted July 11 Since there is a tanto by Shintogo Kunimitsu (Juyo Bunkazai in the Atsuta Jingu) with a Toku-Ji san-nen nengo as well, it should be compared first to the blade in question. Much has been said about the kanji for "Kunimitsu". I see inconsistencies to Kunimtsu's traits in both kanji; too many for me to explain it with student's work. The first, horizontal part of the 2nd stroke of the kanji "Kuni" is "hanging" down. As mentioned before, the 4th stroke should be close to vertical and be in line with the first stroke of "Mitsu" The hokkan-style of the upper part of "Mitsu" is missing. Student's work...maybe, but I'm sceptical- What really bothers me is the writing of the nengo. It looks completely different in style and proportions compared to the Bunkazai. reinhard 3 Quote
Curran Posted July 12 Report Posted July 12 On 7/8/2025 at 4:23 AM, Alex A said: If NBTHK couldn't come to a decision, then what chance have you guys got here? I hope it all works out for you Lewis. It depends. It can be a hold out "crazy uncle" judge (a bad session or such). @Lewis B you can have all my 7 or 8 Horyu result tags. So far, all have papered the next shinsa where I sent them in [usually the following year]. Many were Middle Weight to Light-Heavyweights. One Horyu is in shinsa_2.0 now and is a heavyweight. When a heavyweight, odds are probably more against a pass. So let us both see. My Horyu were all for fittings. Quote
Alex A Posted July 12 Report Posted July 12 Its just that they have it hands with all their references next to them and still were undecided. Guys here from images with the emphasis on the mei. Who knows though, a fresh shinsa may come to an agreeable opinion. 1 Quote
Gakusee Posted July 12 Report Posted July 12 6 hours ago, Alex A said: Its just that they have it hands with all their references next to them and still were undecided. Guys here from images with the emphasis on the mei. Who knows though, a fresh shinsa may come to an agreeable opinion. Alex Nothing to do with “will it paper, will it not….” This is about an intellectual debate, curiosity and an interesting topic. I am not at all fixated on whether it will paper. It is much more interesting to exchange advanced opinions about the mei, the shape of the nakago, the workmanship, the yasurime and so on, coming from different contributors such as Jacques, Chris, Jussi, Reinhard, Kiril etc. This is one of the more intellectual threads which are right “on topic” of this forum, the type of which we are craving, as opposed to political bickering in the izakaya or whether the world is going to its end due to fossil fuels and overconsumption or whether we should be sad or happy…. I personally feel that either because of ennui or dearth of captivating sword/ tosogu mainstay topics like this one, a lot of us are spending time wrangling on other “life” topics, which are actually probably best left to their own…. So, I am grateful to Lewis or HB (not sure about best way to address him) for bringing this challenge here. Lots of question marks and uncertainties and that is what makes it interesting. 8 1 Quote
Alex A Posted July 12 Report Posted July 12 Not sure why you have gone off on a tangent Michael, what happens in the "general" thread has nothing to do with Nihonto Wise enough to know no one here can make judgements that matter on that blade, no matter what names you throw in to the mix, the only one being Jussi who i do have some kind of respect for as gets off his ass to to offer something new. Obviously, you can discuss the blade and offer opinions, but that wont further the blade as your opinions are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and add no value, such as NBTHK papers. (sorry but that's just realistic, no talk here will add any value or authenticity, it is what it is and sadly, knowledge and references don't equal that of nbthk) Throwing the term around "Intellectual" doesn't really assist in your pursuit. You saying this conversation is above me or something? Personally, not bothered. Know enough to know you guys wont match the NBTHK , especially in images, Jacques will attest to that. Good night, God bless. ps, made a polite point but obviously brushed some feathers, for reasons i cant be assed with Weird, i guess some folks think they know better. 1 Quote
Alex A Posted July 12 Report Posted July 12 Hoshi, what's with the down vote?, Repeating words from other writers doesn't make you an "expert" Quote
Alex A Posted July 12 Report Posted July 12 So you guys think you are above NBTHK now, that have seen it in hand?, incredible. I guess pulling mei and what not from books and illuding to the the odd observation makes one an "intellectual" on a subject, give me a break. What is it with people that makes them online expert? Perhaps there really should be NMB Shinsa papers What i have learned, those that know have nothing to say, think on. Quote
Ray Singer Posted July 13 Report Posted July 13 12 hours ago, Alex A said: Its just that they have it hands with all their references next to them and still were undecided. Guys here from images with the emphasis on the mei. Who knows though, a fresh shinsa may come to an agreeable opinion. It is not exactly that the shinsa team went as far as they could with research and gave up undecided. The specific history here with this sword is that the NBTHK said to resubmit after restoration. That is what was conveyed by the organization to the previous owner at that time. Polish and submit again, which at least to me implies that they felt there was merit in the mei and that they wanted to evaluate the deki as well. Also, a factor in whether a sword passes shinsa is condition and this one was already in a compromised state, even before restoration. The hamon is weak or gone in the lower half of the blade, and the dealer photos showed the hamon to be thin and drop off the ha at the midpoint. Description and link are below. https://web.archive.org/web/20210727192426/https://nihontou.jp/choice03/toukenkobugu/tantou/210/00.html 新藤五國光（しんとうごくにみつ）は鎌倉鍛冶相州伝の始祖となった刀工で、相州正宗の師として大変著名な刀工。最古の年紀としては永仁元年（1293）のものがある。現存する作品の殆どが国宝や重要文化財、重要美術品に指定されており、なかなか市場ではお目にかかれません。 この短刀は2018年6月の日本美術刀剣保存協会保存刀剣審査に於いて『銘に研究の余地あり』として保留となった品で、「常に見る銘とは些か雰囲気が異なるも、偽銘と判断するには決め手にかける。」と言う審査結果です。 今回、残念ながら正真としてのお墨付きは頂けませんでしたが、今後の銘文研究の進展に期待したい。 時代が古い短刀だけあって、刃区から刀身中程迄は研ぎ減りによって匂口が駆け出していますが、中程から先にかけては細直刃健在で、帽子の返りもしっかりと残っています。 現状古研ぎのため、数多のヒケによって地刃の写真撮影が難しく、この短刀の良さを存分にお伝えできないのが残念ですが、地鉄は精良で判然たる映りが立っており、細直刃の匂口も明るく冴えています。 この短刀には保存状態が良い梨地塗りの鞘が附属しており、柄前さえ新調すればすぐに拵として蘇らせることが可能です。栗形はまた、鞘にはこの短刀について書かれた古書が貼り付けてあり、新藤五國光、粟田口、相州正宗の文字が読み取れます。 はばきには日月の透かしが施されており、今は失われてしまった柄前にも、それは豪華な金具が用いられていたであろうことは想像に難くありません。 然るべき腕達者な研師に駆け出し部分の繕いも併せて研磨依頼し、柄前を新調して大切に次代に引き継いで頂きたく思います。 裸身重量91グラム。 ※この短刀は委託品です。2018年6月の審査で保留の結果が出されたことは当店でも確認済みですのでご安心ください。委託販売依頼者との橋渡しをさせて頂きますので、お気になられた方は希望購入価格を当店へお知らせ下さい。仲介させて頂きます。 各種クレジットカード、セディナショッピングローンによる分割購入も承っております。お気軽にお申し付け下さい。 5 Quote
Rivkin Posted July 13 Report Posted July 13 I don't know the history of this one as well as others, but a conservative way to look at it, I guess, is that after shinsa it probably passed through multiple hands with a question "is it worth a polish". That the collective thinking came up negative despite this being a tanto (not a huge investment) is concerning. Optimistic look is I know couple of cases when someone respected loudly stated that something is gimei and after being sold off on this basis it was accepted as shoshin the next year. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 13 Report Posted July 13 Well that dealer is no fool, and with a good bit of the description advising the Koshirae be restored doesn't exactly fill one with confidence for the dagger itself. Perhaps I'm not as romantic as Lewis here but it would've been childs play for Machii San to open a window to check the deki and resubmit. Nevertheless it has been a very interesting thread and we all are hoping for a good result. 4 Quote
Alex A Posted July 13 Report Posted July 13 Again, my point was not about the discussion of the blade, i made a point that whatever conclusion you guys come to does not matter. It adds nothing to the blade, im sad to say. In a month from now this thread will be forgotten. Lewis and any other future owner will obviously be able to view this discussion from now until eternity and it wont make a difference. Sadly, when it comes to the more sought after higher value blades, that's how it is, the only thing that matters is that it attains NBTHK papers. Personally, id be asking myself why a dealer in Japan let it go. I hope it all works out for you Lewis, as i mentioned in my post at the beginning. Michael, you are out of order, you know what i state is a fact. You can all talk about this blade until you are blue in the face but your conclusions mean nothing, just opinions that carry no clout. Discuss it all you want. Dealers and honesty, that's another subject. Quote
Alex A Posted July 13 Report Posted July 13 On a side note and something i did not mention. Whilst its all great discussing such blades, as anyone considered the fact that its going to be Lewis throwing money at it?, not those that are participating in this discussion. Its bought now, though when someone asks me "is this legit?" via PM, which happens now and again. Will tell them straight, if its from Japan and been in a dealers hands, don't buy it. There is no shortage of legit blades with papers. Quote
Gakusee Posted July 13 Report Posted July 13 28 minutes ago, Alex A said: On a side note and something i did not mention. Whilst its all great discussing such blades, as anyone considered the fact that its going to be Lewis throwing money at it?, not those that are participating in this discussion. Its bought now, though when someone asks me "is this legit?" via PM, which happens now and again. Will tell them straight, if its from Japan and been in a dealers hands, don't buy it. Alex, I deem it uncontestable that we shall never be equal in knowledge and information access to the Shinsa team, so we concur on that point. The Shinsa itself has not reached a definitive conclusion, so if they can debate this blade, why should/could we not? Yes, that could be done out of intellectual curiosity, pursuit of knowledge and one’s one betterment (ie learning from something others have posted). Furthermore, I do not believe we have been raising Lewis’/HB’s expectations or hopes. On the opposite, the community here has been offering insights or access to their databases of images or books, trying to help him reach his own conclusions. Some people have been more sceptical than others, and rightly so. This is a big name and a big bet, in an autochthonous environment which is astute and commercial and likely discounted the blade already, but Lewis has made an informed bet having deliberated about it for a while, not on the spur of the moment. You asked why I went off on a tangent: because of your repeated pejorative and dismissive tone about people posting, implying that our opinions, views, participation etc are pointless: “If NBTHK couldn't come to a decision, then what chance have you guys got here?” ”So you guys think you are above NBTHK now, that have seen it in hand?, incredible.” ”Guys here from images with the emphasis on the mei.” And what I was trying to explain is that someone could post for the sake of participating in a discussion, to feel part of the community, add value / thought/ knowledge, etc; not necessarily to opine on whether a blade will pass this or that Shinsa. Lastly, I do stand by my assertion that this is one of the better topics in a dedicated Nihonto forum. It is arguable whether the term “intellectual” was pertinent, but this topic does require a degree of knowledge and access to understanding beyond the beginner level. No intention on my part of undermining other topics as less worthy but similarly to other I also have the right to express a view on “good vs bad” and my gratitude to Lewis for starting a thread I deem “good”. ————————— Back on topic. There are numerous red flags and areas of concern but at the same time there are indications this could well have been a Koto blade from the wider school of Shintogo. Whether further investigation is worth the monetary investment and emotional commitment is up to the owner. 4 1 Quote
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